28 replies to this topic

[hblask]

This is not a bad beat post. This is a stupid player (me) post, with a serious question at the end. In the last week, I've played these four hands in 0.50 NL:Dealt QQ, raise to 4X, solid conservative player that I've played many times reraises, I call. Flop comes with all junk, he raises again, I call. More junk, he goes all in. I've seen this guy, it only means AA. I call. -$48Dealt AQ offsuit. Flop comes Qxx, I bet, am raised a lot (7 or 8 dollars). More junk, raises another 10, I decide he's bluffing or has QJ or something. Why? No idea, no read, just some thought that crossed my head that I can't let go of. He goes all in on river, I call, he turns over AA. -$50This one basically happened twice, with only slight variation in the cards. I limp in with some weak hand like KJo from a middle position. Everyone before and after me folds to the blinds. One of the blinds raises to something like 6BB. I decide its a blatant steal and they have rag-rag. Why? Both times I'd been in the room less than 10 hands. No read at all. No obvious insane betting. Anyway, flop comes with an Ace both times, I hit lower pair. Opponent bets, I'm still convinced it's a steal, and raise, eventually end up all-in. Each time, -$50.So, after one week, I'm down 180. Without these four hands, I'm marginally positive in a week where the cards have not been kind otherwise, either. With the bad beats and general lack of cards, a net positive would've been a big accomplishment.And so you won't think this is just a whining post, here are my questions:How do I stop doing that? Do I just have to go totally broke first? It feels like I know it's wrong as I'm clicking it, but some lower part of my brain takes over and overrides the intelligent part. Has anyone else experienced this? What do you do about it? After the first "steal" attempt, I said I was going to tape to a note to my screen that said "It's not a blind steal", but I figured the lost money would be reminder enough. Less than 24 hours later some dark part of my brain reared up and told me to not let them get away with it. WF? I can't be the only one whose brain occasionally abandons reason...Ideas?

[Golden]

Bad Beat Forum It's rigged YSAPKY Just getting them out of the way.

[XXEddie]

Golden, on Sunday, May 7th, 2006, 8:54 PM, said:

Bad Beat Forum It's rigged YSAPKY Just getting them out of the way.

I beleive only this one applies

[Demonde]

XXEddie, on Monday, May 8th, 2006, 12:57 AM, said:

I beleive only this one applies

[CrackofmyACE]

I see that you're fluent in donkspeak!!

[hardkorbeatz]

hes trying to steal my pot!!!

[iggymcfly]

I know exactly what you mean. I'd do that too where you either call with a good hand that you know is beat or start tilting and call with bad hands that you know are beat. Either way, it makes it tough to beat NLHE cash games. Eventually, I just had to stop playing them.I still play NLHE tournaments, as well as LHE, stud, and omaha cash games (yes even PL), with plenty of success. But something about NLHE makes it tough if you're low on discipline. At least in a PLO game, when somebody reraises, you know they have a hand, and you can just release your hand if it's something marginal.And in a NLHE tourney, you feel like you're getting somewhere even if you're just folding your hands, so it somehow seems easier to let your hands go if they're nothing good. Something about NLHE cash games just makes them extremely tough discipline-wise. Part of it's that they're so based on starting hands, to the point that when you get a decent one it's tough to let it go. If this is a long-term problem, rather than just part of the learning process, I suggest you make a different game your focus.

[hblask]

XXEddie, on Sunday, May 7th, 2006, 11:57 PM, said:

I beleive only this one applies

Well, certainly in the hands I mentioned this is true (YSAPKY). But mostly, no. I'm a relative beginner, at least compared to all you poker gods, but that's why I read this, to learn from the masters. (Of course, that doesn't explain what you all are doing here...). Overall, I'm solid. If I made mistakes like these all the time, I'd probably quit playing. I'm sure others here have had that irrational part of your brain take over at just the wrong minute. And I'm sure many of you have strategies to defeat it. The quota of smartass responses is used up on this thread, so is there anyone who wants to discuss this particular aspect of poker psychology?

[offset]

If it bugs you enough you will eventually force yourself to stop.

[hblask]

iggymcfly, on Monday, May 8th, 2006, 12:11 AM, said:

If this is a long-term problem, rather than just part of the learning process, I suggest you make a different game your focus.

It's been an on-and-off problem, but not enough to make me a losing player. This is the second week this year where I've donked off a big chunk of money on plays like this. Like I said, I'm still profitable overall, but without these stupid losses, I'd be REALLY profitable. Two, three, or four hands like these a month (or in this case, a week) and suddenly a pretty good month can become mundane.One clue: both weeks like this followed really good runs. Invincibility, perhaps? It somehow feels different than that, but maybe.....Oh, and as for MTTs... haven't caught on to those yet, but I'm getting better results regularly, and should be able to be profitable on those in the next few months, I think. When I lose now, it's mostly on hands that I would've stayed in on if the cards were face up (a la Sklansky's Theory of Poker).

[tswing]

hblask, on Sunday, May 7th, 2006, 8:49 PM, said:

This is not a bad beat post. This is a stupid player (me) post, with a serious question at the end. In the last week, I've played these four hands in 0.50 NL:Dealt QQ, raise to 4X, solid conservative player that I've played many times reraises, I call. Flop comes with all junk, he raises again, I call. More junk, he goes all in. I've seen this guy, it only means AA. I call. -$48Dealt AQ offsuit. Flop comes Qxx, I bet, am raised a lot (7 or 8 dollars). More junk, raises another 10, I decide he's bluffing or has QJ or something. Why? No idea, no read, just some thought that crossed my head that I can't let go of. He goes all in on river, I call, he turns over AA. -$50This one basically happened twice, with only slight variation in the cards. I limp in with some weak hand like KJo from a middle position. Everyone before and after me folds to the blinds. One of the blinds raises to something like 6BB. I decide its a blatant steal and they have rag-rag. Why? Both times I'd been in the room less than 10 hands. No read at all. No obvious insane betting. Anyway, flop comes with an Ace both times, I hit lower pair. Opponent bets, I'm still convinced it's a steal, and raise, eventually end up all-in. Each time, -$50.So, after one week, I'm down 180. Without these four hands, I'm marginally positive in a week where the cards have not been kind otherwise, either. With the bad beats and general lack of cards, a net positive would've been a big accomplishment.And so you won't think this is just a whining post, here are my questions:How do I stop doing that? Do I just have to go totally broke first? It feels like I know it's wrong as I'm clicking it, but some lower part of my brain takes over and overrides the intelligent part. Has anyone else experienced this? What do you do about it? After the first "steal" attempt, I said I was going to tape to a note to my screen that said "It's not a blind steal", but I figured the lost money would be reminder enough. Less than 24 hours later some dark part of my brain reared up and told me to not let them get away with it. WF? I can't be the only one whose brain occasionally abandons reason...Ideas?

I have some suggestions because this exact thing plagued me just about 6 months ago. I was just slightly losing at that time, today I am only slightly winning, but my game is growing immensely.First things first, in no limit ring games you can still be a winning player by not making calls in which you think you have a small edge,(for instance when a BB is raising and you think it is a steal), Therefore, what I am suggesting, is any time you get yourself into this conflict, just go ahead and fold, honestly when your head is telling you its no good but your compulsions make you call, all it takes is actually folding one or two times until it becomes easier. There is a very interesting article i believe on cardplayer i guess called folding aces, basically someone just folded them preflop before just to make it easier to fold them later in his career after the flop in unlucky situations.If you first start making these folds a lot, you can still maximize your other hands and possibly still make a profit, what I am trying to say is, once you start folding these marginal situations a lot, THEN you can begin to focus on which times in these marginal situations you actually should be pushing/playing and not just passively folding.In conclusion, if you fold more often than you should in these situations and then focus on when to make the calls a few months after, you can stay a break even maybe profit or slight loser whereas if you don't first get used to making the laydowns and you first start trying to figure out when and when not to play back (like the BB situation you discussed) you will most likely be a losing player without a chance of even being break even.I know this is very confusing but it honestly helped me immensely bc like i said just 6 months ago i was making the plays you described very often, and honestly it helps to just fold more often than needed just to get used to it. It gets to the point where making laydowns is so not emotional anymore, regardless of if you flop a straight or trips and just have to laydown to chitty boards. Good luck, let me know if you understand what I am trying to say..

[CrackofmyACE]

when you feel like you're about to make an impulse decision (call, reraise push) even though you know, or strongly suspect you're beat.... pause...take a deep breath, count to ten and reconsiderThis helps me immensily

[HangukMiguk]

i win

[LikWidAZN]

I understand completely what you're going through. I went through a stretch like that where I made dumb calls through a bad stretch...this was maybe a year or 2 ago. I was originally a solid player before I hit that stretch...and I had just gone through a pretty good run playing 1/2 NL. I guess I felt like I was almost invincible and then I got bit in the *** when I started to go through a cold run. I took a complete break from poker for a month or 2 to clear my head. When I got back into playing I found that I was thinking much more clearly and that my reads were getting sharper. I guess when I used to make those dumb calls through my bad stretch I was just trying to prove something to myself...I guess you could call it a "making a great call" high. Basically the break I took sobered me up, and maybe because I though I was rusty because of the break, I forced myself to think longer about each part of the hand I was in. In the end it takes experience and discipline. Well, good luck and I hope you get over your problem. Just think of it as a learning experience...I haven't gone through any of those stretches again for the past year and now I'm playing 2/5 NL regularly and sometimes 15/30 to 25/50 limit holdem.

[iggymcfly]

CrackofmyACE, on Sunday, May 7th, 2006, 9:57 PM, said:

when you feel like you're about to make an impulse decision (call, reraise push) even though you know, or strongly suspect you're beat.... pause...take a deep breath, count to ten and reconsiderThis helps me immensily

Really? It seems like whenever I get stuck in this spot online, I debate with myself til the timer's almost up, and then it's like "well, I don't think I'm ahead, but I haven't completely convinced myself that I'm not yet, so I guess I'll just call and see".

[turd ferguson]

iggymcfly, on Sunday, May 7th, 2006, 10:11 PM, said:

Part of it's that they're so based on starting hands, to the point that when you get a decent one it's tough to let it go.

I liked your post until you got to this part. As it applies to deep stacked NLHE this statement could not be more incorrect.

iggymcfly, on Monday, May 8th, 2006, 12:49 AM, said:

Really? It seems like whenever I get stuck in this spot online, I debate with myself til the timer's almost up, and then it's like "well, I don't think I'm ahead, but I haven't completely convinced myself that I'm not yet, so I guess I'll just call and see".

Yeah, this is one of the reasons I gave up playing no-limit online. I just don't feel comfortable having to make important decisions that fast.

[iggymcfly]

turd ferguson, on Monday, May 8th, 2006, 12:12 AM, said:

Quote

Part of it's that they're so based on starting hands, to the point that when you get a decent one it's tough to let it go.

I liked your post until you got to this part. As it applies to deep stacked NLHE this statement could not be more incorrect.

I guess I worded it poorly in trying to get my sentiment across. What I meant is that to beat a deep stacked NL cash game, you usually need to play really tight if you don't take the pot down right away. In general (either because you folded PF or postflop), it's going to take a lot of hands before you play a big pot, so when you get a good hand, you really want to hold on to it, since it's the best thing you've seen in what feels like hours. What I was thinking of in terms of starting hands, is how a lot of times, you'll raise with something like JJ and know that you're hand's practically worthless if you don't flop a set after you get reraised by a tight player even though you can go a whole session without a better starting hand.Meanwhile, in a game like PL Omaha, you're going to be playing a lot of big pots, since you'll get in with a big draw against a set or something like that, so when your bottom set does get repotted, it's easier to get away from. In LHE, you still have to be careful about starting hands, but you can usually afford to call down even when you're afraid your opponent might have something bigger. That's what I was saying in terms of the combination of starting hands being important as well as big laydowns.

[hblask]

tswing, on Monday, May 8th, 2006, 12:49 AM, said:

[...]First things first, in no limit ring games you can still be a winning player by not making calls in which you think you have a small edge,(for instance when a BB is raising and you think it is a steal), Therefore, what I am suggesting, is any time you get yourself into this conflict, just go ahead and fold, honestly when your head is telling you its no good but your compulsions make you call, all it takes is actually folding one or two times until it becomes easier. There is a very interesting article i believe on cardplayer i guess called folding aces, basically someone just folded them preflop before just to make it easier to fold them later in his career after the flop in unlucky situations.[etc...]

Nice post, thanks. When you put it this way, it makes a lot of sense. It also makes me think that multi-tabling across levels was part of the problem this week, because in the 0.10 room, there are no bad calls, only bad luck, and a call is never completely wrong, whereas in the 0.50 room there is a semblance of actual play, and a bad call is just a bad call. My "fold-that-junk-o-meter" may have gotten miscalibrated.

[Balloon guy]

You're attitude seems to be your problem. I bet you wig out when someone cuts you off in traffic. You want justice too much and Poker isn't about justice, it's about making good decisions.Just because you got a good hand doesn't mean you have the best hand. Quit falling in love and allow yourself to get bluffed. We all get bluffed and bluff people. It's not a personal attack, it's a game. When you lose with pocket aces do you flip out?When your flush loses to a river boat do you flip out?The more this happens, the less it will affect you so much. Or you will explode, either way this will pass.In everything in life you have to pay your dues to get to the upper levels.Welcome to the dues of poker.

[Brisco]

Legit post.How do you get away from big pairs? Playing lots of hands. For me there is a little voice in my head that says you are beaten. I usually ignore it, and usually go broke.LISTEN TO THE VOICES!