10 replies to this topic

[Fooney]

I'm on the button in a limit HE game (.50/1) and have Ac-8c. I call with 3 limpers in front of me. Big blind raises and I, along with everyone else call that bet also (the merits of that call are for another thread). 5 of us see an uncoordinated flop containing 2 clubs. Big blind bets and is raised immediately to his left and the 2 other guys call to me. At that point I figure everyone is going to call a raise and since I'm getting 4:1 equity on a 1:2 shot with 5 big bets already in the pot, why not? So I raise, big blind caps and 4 of the five of us end up seeing the turn.The turn and river don't flush me and the end result was that a set of K's beat a set of 9's. The fourth guy folded with me after the river card. This got me to thinking, though, and here's the question. Was my post-flop raise a smart move? looking at the hand afterwards, I lost at least 2 of my nine outs (3 on the river) to the guys with the sets and my guess is the other guy that folded was on a flush draw too and probably had another of my 2 outs. I was probably actually looking at 1:4 odds (or worse) on the turn and river together and only 1:8.5 on the turn.Is it safe to assume that with four other guys willing to cap the betting that I 'm probably looking at a set and another flush draw in there somewhere? I'm not suggesting that I fold the hand but in this particular case, is the raise actually a value bet?Sorry if this is hard to follow, I couldn't get a copy of the hand history for the hand.

[AKQJs_2o]

Fooney said:

I'm on the button in a limit HE game (.50/1) and have Ac-8c....Is it safe to assume that with four other guys willing to cap the betting that I 'm probably looking at a set and another flush draw in there somewhere? I'm not suggesting that I fold the hand but in this particular case, is the raise actually a value bet?

I think your post-flop raise was a value bet and an excellent move.Following your reads, who cares if someone else hits a flush as long as it's the same suit that you have A-x suited in the hole?* I'd be praying that the guy hit a K-high flush!I'd also be thrilled if two other players hit KKK and 999 to my nut flush.IMO, you put yourself in a great position, built the pot with a post-flop raise, and dang-it, the flush didn't come. If you'd have hit your A-high flush then the K-high flush, KKK, and 999 would've paid you off quite well. If you were making the same play but trying to hit a Q, J, or T-high flush then it goes from being a solid/aggressive play to playing (very) loose/aggressive. Having the second-best flush is always a lousy spot to be in if there's a showdown.Another thing, you re-raised the two bets post flop when it came to you, that helps your table image. If you rarely raise and never re-raise then you're not going to get much action when you do hit the nuts and you bumping the bets. Even if you don't win, you show that you're an action player and your opponents can't easily put you on a big hand everytime you re-raise, so you have a better chance to make those bets back later on. The post-flop/pre-turn-river are the inexpensive re-raises, so unless you already have the nuts the p-f/p-t-r re-raises make the most sense.IMO you made an aggressive re-raise, it didn't happen to payoff. If every aggressive re-raise paid-off then the entire strategy of poker would be altered and everybody would be making aggressive re-raises on every hand.* I had to qualify this statement because you didn't specify the situation and with two flopping there is always the possibility that someone could hit an x-suit x-runner-turn and x-runner-river flush another suit besides , although it would be a fairly rare occurence.

[wrto4556]

Raise pre-flop.Other than that you played it great.You just have to get comfortable building big pots.

[mark33f]

I have noticed that a lot newbies get nervous when they are in a big pot?

[wrto4556]

mark33f said:

I have noticed that a lot newbies get nervous when they are in a big pot?

Yeah. It was hard for me to get used to it because of the feeling when that monster pot you created goes the other way.But what helped me get used to it is that you want to win all the big pots. If every pot you play in is big, you're going to have the best of it.

[KDawgCometh]

I think that a limp three bet would've been smart there PF. You already have two bets trapped in there PF many will call a third bet there too. Your play was perfectly fine on the flop and you kept the lead when it was checked to you. You can play a hand perfectly and still lose. Be sure to check out the strategy blog tommorrow evening as I'm gonna post a hand that I played great and I feel maximized the pot in my favor

[avsfan]

KDawgCometh said:

I think that a limp three bet would've been smart there PF.

Ah, yeahhhh!!! Or yes I agree with you! Things like that and theory comparison is why i like Gary Carson's "Complete Book of Hold'em". The other play is good too.

[wrto4556]

KDawgCometh said:

I think that a limp three bet would've been smart there PF.

The problem with that, is that you don't know if the BB is going to raise or not. You want to build this pot since there is already 3 people in front of you so you should raise yourself.But, having limped, a 3-bet would be fun.

[avsfan]

I do agree with raising in the first place too wrto. fwiwIn a rhetorical voice.Say everythings the same scenario except you raise and the big blind reraises. Now what? IMO you can cap it rereraise if you feel like it :-) . I am just tryin to carry the possibilities through here.

[Fooney]

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it.I suppose that the implied odds do make it a value bet even if allot of my outs are covered.I didn't even think about the impact on table image. Thanks AKQJ.I'm still not sure about the suggested limp-raise pre-flop, though. And it's not because big pots make me skittish. I just like to get in with as little exposure as possible with my drawing hands until I see the flop.

[avsfan]

Fooney said:

I just like to get in with as little exposure as possible with my drawing hands until I see the flop.

I can respect that.