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#1 liveactiononly

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 09:47 PM

Alright, so i was playing in the 40-80 mix the other night and they handn't taken hold'em out of the mix yet (usually doesnt last long because of limited action) and the following hand came up and a friend of mine wants to argue with me so lets get some input.My hand: 3 :club: 3 :) My opponent: Very aggressive especially when heads-up. I am in the big blind and everyone folds to the SB who comes in for a raise. I three bet to define his hand and he comes back with another raise and i call. At this point i am giving him credit for atleast A 10...being only heads up, this guy would have tried to slow play a big pair (i dont know why but he likes to just call with big pairs shorthanded)....The flop comes: j :D 6 :D 3 :D Very nice flop for me....Meanwhile, the SB leads into me and i raise.... Note: when i raise i could sense him looking at me and i was sure he percieved my body language as that of someone betting without a hand.I knew my hand was best at this point. The question that me and my friend where arguing over was how to maximize my profits from this point forward. What do you guys think is the best play from here assuming blanks come off on the turn and river?ps. my opponent has A J so he is sticking around.I'll post what i did in a minute.
If you see a kid in a casino who doesnt look 21, dont hate on him and have him carded just because he is the one raking in all your chips.

#2 Wingmaster05

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 10:00 PM

when he 3 bets you cap so he c/r's the turn and you three bet, etc etc
Creation is evolution, evolution is karma, karma is habits, habits are thoughts. Change your thoughts and evolve! ~

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#3 liveactiononly

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Posted 03 May 2006 - 10:08 PM

View PostWingmaster05, on Wednesday, May 3rd, 2006, 11:00 PM, said:

when he 3 bets you cap so he c/r's the turn and you three bet, etc etc
Well i just called the third bet on the flop. I did this for the main reason of giving him the sense that i was going to shut down and not bet the turn. Thus, giving him the inclination to bet the turn no matter the card. I figured if i 4 bet him on that flop he would shut down and check call the rest of the way. I figured that me 3 betting he could shrug off as aggressiveness but a 4th i am not so sure would have the same effect.Do you think i could have gotten away with 4 betting and still get a lead bet out of him on the turn?I am trying to visualize the thought process of a donk but i cant seem to find any reason why he would bet the turn after being 4 bet on the flop. thanks for the input.
If you see a kid in a casino who doesnt look 21, dont hate on him and have him carded just because he is the one raking in all your chips.

#4 Shimmering Wang

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 01:27 AM

View Postliveactiononly, on Thursday, May 4th, 2006, 1:47 AM, said:

Note: when i raise i could sense him looking at me and i was sure he percieved my body language as that of someone betting without a hand.With that in mind, i knew my hand was best at this point. The question that me and my friend where arguing over was how to maximize my profits from this point forward. What do you guys think is the best play from here assuming blanks come off on the turn and river?ps. my opponent has A J so he is sticking around.I'll post what i did in a minute.
Dude, this entire post is comically nonsensical, but I highlighted a few gems.1) How in the heck were you sure he perceived your "I raise" body language as that of someone without a hand? I guess I can see this as your personal shorthand for "I was giving off total weakness vibes, and I know he bought it." Seems more like "BS NONSENSE" than anything else, but I'll just assume somehow this is a given, and move on to...2) What the heck? You needed a little tell from your opponent to convince yourself that your bottom set was good? Are you serious? Are you sure you're not a cartoon character? You flopped a set on a rainbow board in a heads-up pot against an aggressive player, who could have exactly zero reasonable draws. I think you can just safely assume your set of threes is good.3) What kind of advice do you want, here? You're doing this backwards. Don't tell us what he has. Don't even have a serious conversation with your friend during which the phrase, "Yeah, but he had Ace-Jack" comes up. It does nobody any good (least of all me). Give him a range, and decide what to do to maximize winnings against said range OVER TIME. Just because he has AJ this time doesn't mean it wasn't just as likely that he had AK, 99 or 22 (if you want to get technical, it's actually less likely his hand contains a jack once a jack slides off). Discussing this hand with the results in mind is mental masturbation; no, it's worse. It's like mental dry-humping. This post made me so angry, for so many reasons. It might be the whiskey (angers up the blood), but probably not. I hate.WangPS- Go to war on the turn. Capping in position here could be a mistake. Let him take the lead on the turn, raise it up, and hope he has a hand he's willing to put a third bet in with. Then you just put the pedal down. You could make an argument for trying to get in 5 bets on the flop, but he's probably too smart to get THAT nuts with anything that doesn't beat you (JJ/66).

#5 Briguy

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 03:15 AM

Preflop: I three bet because I hate moneyFYPWell said, Wang.
I should change this.

#6 liveactiononly

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 08:00 AM

View PostShimmering Wang, on Thursday, May 4th, 2006, 2:27 AM, said:

Dude, this entire post is comically nonsensical, but I highlighted a few gems.1) How in the heck were you sure he perceived your "I raise" body language as that of someone without a hand? I guess I can see this as your personal shorthand for "I was giving off total weakness vibes, and I know he bought it." Seems more like "BS NONSENSE" than anything else, but I'll just assume somehow this is a given, and move on to...
To start with, i dont want to sound rude but i just think this is a little over your head. When betting, the perception your oppenent has of you at the exact moment you bet is of the utmost importance....BECAUSE what he percieves your body language to be is what he will instill in his mind as to the strengh of your hand. Now just think about this for a minute and dont attempt to talk to me like i am some kid who doesnt know how to play. When i bet, i bet(althought not a purposeful attempt) in a loose fashion, i just threw my chips into the pot and nonchalantly said raise. Now, what i am getting at is that when i bet i could sense that his perception of me was that i was weak and just betting. This is important because if he percieves me as a total maniacal figure then he would bet the turn regardless of what i did on the flop. But i decided that was not the case, and called the flop so i could raise the turn.

View PostShimmering Wang, on Thursday, May 4th, 2006, 2:27 AM, said:

2) What the heck? You needed a little tell from your opponent to convince yourself that your bottom set was good? Are you serious? Are you sure you're not a cartoon character? You flopped a set on a rainbow board in a heads-up pot against an aggressive player, who could have exactly zero reasonable draws. I think you can just safely assume your set of threes is good....
This remark only supports my previous assumption that this is just a little to far in for you. I question was NOT....i repeat....WAS NOT about whether or not my hand was good at the time, it was how you think i should maximize my profits from the flop forward.

View PostShimmering Wang, on Thursday, May 4th, 2006, 2:27 AM, said:

3) What kind of advice do you want, here? You're doing this backwards. Don't tell us what he has. Don't even have a serious conversation with your friend during which the phrase, "Yeah, but he had Ace-Jack" comes up. It does nobody any good (least of all me). Give him a range, and decide what to do to maximize winnings against said range OVER TIME. Just because he has AJ this time doesn't mean it wasn't just as likely that he had AK, 99 or 22 (if you want to get technical, it's actually less likely his hand contains a jack once a jack slides off). Discussing this hand with the results in mind is mental masturbation; no, it's worse. It's like mental dry-humping. This post made me so angry, for so many reasons. It might be the whiskey (angers up the blood), but probably not. ....
By this point i have realized that you were either totally off course when you were typing or you just really are not that smart. As you stated in (2 of your responses, my threes were good....i knew that, and this is why i provided the A J in the content of the post.... the aggressive SB obviously had some part of the flop (he 4 bet me) and i didnt want any of the readers to think that there was a possibility i could be beat.... Or that he would fold.

View PostShimmering Wang, on Thursday, May 4th, 2006, 2:27 AM, said:

I hate.
This little quote in my mind further solidifies that you are a small minded individual and probably dont play poker very well because of it. You, like many others before you on this forum, attempt to criticize the play of others in such a way that lifts your own self esteem, meanwhile degrading theirs. What if i was someone just starting the game and got a response like this to my post, it just DOES NOT speak well for the forum. Unfortunatly, that is what this forum is coming to. An overpopulation of weak minded LOOSING players that continue to berate other posters on anything from grammer......to being a donk. You people are ridiculous, and you sir Shimmering Wang, i would be 100% confident that you are small time player with little if any experience in a game over the 3-6 level. Thanks for the imput, but no thanks.The most disturbing part about it is you rode in on your hi and mighty horse to tell me how dumb i was, but you werent even on topic in your response. You drifted on some tangent about whether or not i knew i was good as well as your nonsense about my read of my opponent, none of which you made a solid point on.
If you see a kid in a casino who doesnt look 21, dont hate on him and have him carded just because he is the one raking in all your chips.

#7 Fat Tye

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 08:27 AM

Sorry, but you should be able to admit Wang makes a couple of good points, and brightens up my day with some humour. "Discussing this hand with the results in mind is mental masturbation; no, it's worse. It's like mental dry-humping."That being said, I would also just call the 3 bet on the flop hoping to have him lead the turn. Knowing he has AJ can influence your responses on this point. Knowing he has AJ the correct play would probably be to cap as there would still be a good chance he would lead the turn. Also, you could safely assume he will at least call your bets all the way to the river.However, assuming we do not know what he has, I believe the best play is to call the flop, hope he bets the turn and continue to bet/raise every opportunity from there forward. I believe the flop call may show a little weakness - more like you hit a J, than you have a set and that may help you extract more bets later in the hand.
Hey, it could happen to anyone.
It just seems to happen to the stupid people first.

#8 Briguy

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 08:34 AM

Worst flounce ever.Hollywooding at the table is -EV. Any decent player will know that you are sitting on a monster as soon as you begin to feign suffering from the vapours. Keep the same demeanor when you have a monster as when you have sweet crap-all, and you'll find your monsters get more action.
I should change this.

#9 Actuary

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 08:50 AM

my two questions:1. Party has 40-80 Mixed games on Play money tables?2. How do you make the icons give off body language tells?

#10 Actuary

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 09:01 AM

************to elaborate:OP you act like you are the shit while your posts are riddled with amatuerish manuevers and novice questions.How to make the most of your set when you know the villan has AJ and won't fold? Well we know it. But you only knew he was strong after the action heated up.Anyone posting here would know not to give opponents hand away.You dont' want advice, you want to boast or fillibuster or something.we laugh at your type.

#11 pokerplayer24

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 09:16 AM

View PostBriguy, on Thursday, May 4th, 2006, 3:15 AM, said:

Preflop: I three bet because I hate moneyFYP
The 3-bet isnt that bad.This hand is real straight forward overall. I mean is the point to say I play 40/80 mixed and am the best hand reader to ever play poker.Pretty straight forward call of his 3-bet on the flop then raise/cappage of the turn.

#12 liveactiononly

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 09:56 AM

View Postpokerplayer24, on Thursday, May 4th, 2006, 10:16 AM, said:

The 3-bet isnt that bad.This hand is real straight forward overall. I mean is the point to say I play 40/80 mixed and am the best hand reader to ever play poker.Pretty straight forward call of his 3-bet on the flop then raise/cappage of the turn.
:club: stop....please.... there is no needi dont even know why i post to you fukin donks... i dont think anyone has ever posted on this forum and not been told that they are an ameteur.... or they are a donk...or something degrading so that everyone else can feel like they are pro's...this forum is a joke, and when i see daniel at the bellagio in the next week or so, i will tell him fcp is a JOKE...You are all a bunch of overly sarcastic, self-promoting, smasharoo wanabes who dont have anything intelligent to say so you intend to berate others with dumb humor....Look no further than the catch phrases and tradition of sarcasic humor on this site for proof of its idiocy...the bottom line is you have to face your bankroll at the end of the day and know you are an incompetent loosing player who will ultimately be posting in forums and topics just like this for the rest of your historic poker career. Spare me any futher delegation, if you ever make it as a pro i will be waiting for you at the bellagio. Thanks
If you see a kid in a casino who doesnt look 21, dont hate on him and have him carded just because he is the one raking in all your chips.

#13 Actuary

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 10:00 AM

hmmm..no I'm not a loosing player, nor a losing one.But, I'm not a pro either.Funny, how a clown like you judges the entire forum.You will have a tough time finding a strategy post of mine that gets flamed.Most of the posts in here are not.It's all about YOUR attitude.you are way to defensive and ego driven to post beneficially in a forum.you are what's wrong with strategy forums, not Wang.and, you lie a lot.

#14 Shimmering Wang

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 10:31 AM

Okay, dude... you ARE a cartoon character."I nonchalantly tossed my chips into the pot and said 'raise', showing massive weakness." When I was playing in 10 dollar buy in games at the age of 14 people did this... AND IT STILL DIDN'T WORK!Much of poker is over my head, but I promise you there's nothing contained in your bullshit post that even approaches that level. I'm an amateur player, but you're an amateur human being, and a novice liar.How many people do you think will be sad if you never post here again? I won't, because I don't really get all that much from these forums. Actuary won't, because- much like me- he thinks you're a hilarious fucking idiot. No novice players would care, because you have nothing to offer anyone, except as a foil, making everyone else's posts seem exceedingly more logical, rational, and NOT SO FUCKING DUMB.WangPS- Just so you know, I bucked up in my first post and included hand analysis, even though I hate you.

#15 Briguy

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 10:37 AM

You are supposed to stay away after flouncing. What's the point of flouncing if you are going to come back to flounce again? -10 points for style (or lack thereof).
I should change this.

#16 screech

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 10:40 AM

Quote

To start with, i dont want to sound rude but i just think this is a little over your head. When betting, the perception your oppenent has of you at the exact moment you bet is of the utmost importance....BECAUSE what he percieves your body language to be is what he will instill in his mind as to the strengh of your hand. Now just think about this for a minute and dont attempt to talk to me like i am some kid who doesnt know how to play. When i bet, i bet(althought not a purposeful attempt) in a loose fashion, i just threw my chips into the pot and nonchalantly said raise. Now, what i am getting at is that when i bet i could sense that his perception of me was that i was weak and just betting. This is important because if he percieves me as a total maniacal figure then he would bet the turn regardless of what i did on the flop. But i decided that was not the case, and called the flop so i could raise the turn.This remark only supports my previous assumption that this is just a little to far in for you. I question was NOT....i repeat....WAS NOT about whether or not my hand was good at the time, it was how you think i should maximize my profits from the flop forward.
Give me a ****ing break. Yeah, how your opponent percieves your play can squeeze out an extra bet here or there, but how he percieves your body language? Maybe if he read caro's book of tells and thought that you hadn't, or if you had, weren't trying to send mix signals, than maybe, just maybe, your opponent might give a tiny bit of weight to your body language in making his overall decision. But his decision will be more weighted in how you have been playing up to this point, the board texture, and his own cards. You are trying way too hard if you are trying to percieve how he percieves your body language. Even if you get it right, you will only make like 1/1000 of an extra BB, and most of the time you won't get it right. So what's the purpose of trying? You shouldn't waste your energy focusing on things like this. It's just silly.Now you can come after me (or Wang), saying that we just don't understand the enlightened level of poker thinking going on in your brain, but in that case you don't really need help with this hand, and your post is just to show how badly you can beat poker into submission. If that's not the case, and you're really looking for advice on the optimal line here, then you should spend more time on hand analysis than worrying about how your opponents perceive your body language. Anyway, I think you are sincere in looking for advice on the hand, so I'll give you my 2 cents. You should raise the flop. Your opponent will call down with ace high, and may 3-bet something like ace-jack. However, if you raise the turn, he will probalby slow down with his ace-jack, and release his ace-high hands.

#17 jayboogie

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 11:21 AM

I'd have probably made the Hellmuthesque laydown after he 3-bets the flop and give him credit for JJ and not chase my 1 outer. That's why I'm a poker pro, because I can look into people's souls through my "sunglasses" and read them perfectly. :club:

#18 liveactiononly

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 11:46 AM

View Postscreech, on Thursday, May 4th, 2006, 11:40 AM, said:

Give me a ****ing break. Yeah, how your opponent percieves your play can squeeze out an extra bet here or there, but how he percieves your body language? Maybe if he read caro's book of tells and thought that you hadn't, or if you had, weren't trying to send mix signals, than maybe, just maybe, your opponent might give a tiny bit of weight to your body language in making his overall decision. But his decision will be more weighted in how you have been playing up to this point, the board texture, and his own cards. You are trying way too hard if you are trying to percieve how he percieves your body language. Even if you get it right, you will only make like 1/1000 of an extra BB, and most of the time you won't get it right. So what's the purpose of trying? You shouldn't waste your energy focusing on things like this. It's just silly.Now you can come after me (or Wang), saying that we just don't understand the enlightened level of poker thinking going on in your brain, but in that case you don't really need help with this hand, and your post is just to show how badly you can beat poker into submission. If that's not the case, and you're really looking for advice on the optimal line here, then you should spend more time on hand analysis than worrying about how your opponents perceive your body language. Anyway, I think you are sincere in looking for advice on the hand, so I'll give you my 2 cents. You should raise the flop. Your opponent will call down with ace high, and may 3-bet something like ace-jack. However, if you raise the turn, he will probalby slow down with his ace-jack, and release his ace-high hands.
I am sincere about getting advice and i think you provided some for me and i thank you for that. But give ME a Fukin break, in bigger games with MUCH more skilled players than the average online game you have to be aware of how your opponent percieves your actions. Actually, i think this aspect is one of the utmost importance. It doesnt matter what you have, it matters what your oppenent thinks you have as to how he will play the hand. If you cant understand this then sadly you will never be top notch player.Also: If you are an internet player you probably only associate your "table image" with how other players percieve you but in live games at a slightly higher limit the way in which you place your chips into the pot and with what attitude you do this in is EQUALLY as important as the image your oppenent already has of you.
If you see a kid in a casino who doesnt look 21, dont hate on him and have him carded just because he is the one raking in all your chips.

#19 hotbacon

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 12:00 PM

View Postliveactiononly, on Thursday, May 4th, 2006, 12:46 PM, said:

I am sincere about getting advice and i think you provided some for me and i thank you for that. But give ME a Fukin break, in bigger games with MUCH more skilled players than the average online game you have to be aware of how your opponent percieves your actions. Actually, i think this aspect is one of the utmost importance. It doesnt matter what you have, it matters what your oppenent thinks you have as to how he will play the hand. If you cant understand this then sadly you will never be top notch player.Also: If you are an internet player you probably only associate your "table image" with how other players percieve you but in live games at a slightly higher limit the way in which you place your chips into the pot and with what attitude you do this in is EQUALLY as important as the image your oppenent already has of you.
Tells are drastically overrated. Only suckers think it's a big aspect of poker.Also, we're not even talking about big games in this hand.

Quote

my two questions:1. Party has 40-80 Mixed games on Play money tables?2. How do you make the icons give off body language tells?
:club:
no set no bet

#20 Shimmering Wang

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Posted 04 May 2006 - 12:19 PM

View Postliveactiononly, on Thursday, May 4th, 2006, 3:46 PM, said:

I am sincere about getting advice and i think you provided some for me and i thank you for that. But give ME a Fukin break, in bigger games with MUCH more skilled players than the average online game you have to be aware of how your opponent percieves your actions. Actually, i think this aspect is one of the utmost importance. It doesnt matter what you have, it matters what your oppenent thinks you have as to how he will play the hand. If you cant understand this then sadly you will never be top notch player.Also: If you are an internet player you probably only associate your "table image" with how other players percieve you but in live games at a slightly higher limit the way in which you place your chips into the pot and with what attitude you do this in is EQUALLY as important as the image your oppenent already has of you.
1) Do you really think the hold'em play in the 40/80 mixed game at the Bellagio is a huge step up from a 10/20 online game? Maybe I'm wrong, but if that 40/80 game is better, it's probably not by very much. 2) You'll never hear me dispute that 3rd and 4th level thinking is necessary to maximize winnings (and in many cases, be a winning player), but I haven't heard anyone suggest otherwise here. I won't speak for anyone else, but my point is that your betting patterns and style of play are MUCH more important regarding hand reading than whether you splashed your chips into the pot or placed them neatly, ESPECIALLY if this is really a "high level game." Any player worth his salt will pretty quickly see through the act you put on, or disregard that information as unreliable at best. His determination of your hand strength SHOULD be 90% betting pattern and style of play considerations, and MAYBE 10% some physical tell.3) By your logic, there's a good chance you ACTUALLY have a REAL tell, and your opponent will pick it up and go into call down mode once you show strength, making this whole discussion silly.4) I'm still waiting for you to explain what the value of analyzing the hand ex post facto is if you're just going to assume he has exactly what he did. It's a lot more valuable to assume he has a range, and then decide on a course of action based on that range, as opposed to what you saw his hand REALLY WAS. He doesn't always have AJ here. He doesn't even USUALLY have AJ here. In fact, when he caps and leads, you admit it is very difficult to put him on a tight range. He could have any PP, any whiffed ace or king, or a hand that has some part of the board. The question shouldn't be, "How can I milk TPTK for the most?" It should be, "How can I get as much money into the pot over time against my opponents likely holdings?WangWang




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