One For You Nl Players

[screech 0]

I love NL. I love to snapped 10 times as much when I get outdrawn for 10 times the money.Anyway, I just sat down at this table an orbit ago. Only read on villian is that he reraised my last LP raise to about the same amount. Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)MP ($239.40)Hero ($384.60)SB ($425.20)BB ($396.70)UTG ($416)Preflop: Hero is Button with T, A. SB posts a blind of $2. 2 folds, Hero raises to $15, 1 fold, BB raises to $42, Hero calls $31.Flop: ($94) 2, K, A(2 players)BB bets $45, Hero calls $45.Turn: ($184) 6(2 players)BB checks, Hero checks.River: ($184) 3(2 players)What size bet should I call on this river?If villian checks, how much should I bet?Everything else look ok?

[BIG_L_RIP 0]

I call everything, but even I would fold that preflop to the RR.

[CobaltBlue 662]

I think I'm probably willing to call up to $120 on the river and pray that he flips over QQ/JJ/TT.As for PF, I'm not clear why you raised so much. I guess it's not terrible, but it's definitely at the upper range for open-raises at 2/4 without reads. Once he re-raises, he's giving you a range of hands...which is why a read is relatively important for calling. I definitely would've folded to a RR if I was OOP, but calling isn't super terrible in this spot. Again though, I'd prefer doing it with a hand with a smaller chance of being dominated.

[offset 0]

Just because he reraised you once and you did not see his cards does not mean you should call a reraise with a weak holding. Shorthanded NL is much different from shorthanded limit (I'm speaking from experience, losing 1/2 my bankroll taking a shot at shorthanded limit after steadily increasing my bankroll w/ NL). You should generally give a reraise in NL more credit than a 3 bet in limit. In NL, especially at these stakes you can usually give a reraiser in this position credit for at least AJ or KQ. Many players would tell you it is a leak to call the reraise with AQ in your spot.I also don't know why you are raising an amount that will only push weaker aces and broadway hands containing a ten out. Save yourself money and headaches. Raise 3-4BB preflop and fold to normal sized reraises.Good Luck, no limit is much more profitable than limit.

[bdc30 0]

Am I the only one who puts in a 2/3 pot sized bet on this turn?His check is incredibly weak, so if he calls a bet here, itmay save us money on the river.I'm thinking a turn bet takes this pot down though if he hasan underpair.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Am I the only one who puts in a 2/3 pot sized bet on this turn?His check is incredibly weak, so if he calls a bet here, itmay save us money on the river.I'm thinking a turn bet takes this pot down though if he hasan underpair.

That's definitely a good alternative line. The line we took saves us money when we're behind, but we have to call the river bet/bluff that we're attempting to induce.

[NoSup4U 0]

Why aren't we raising the flop?We're 5 handed. I call this reraise for sure, especially consider this is the second time out of 2 chances he's had to do this to us. His bet on the flop is standard, we need to raise it.As played, we have no idea if we're up against as set, a straight steal, or something in between imo.I also agree with whoever posted that the pf raise is on the higher end. As I say in almost every post lately, you're just stuffing the pot for no reason, and making it cost a ton to find out where you're at.Mark

[kung fu 0]

i think if we're raising $15 PF (which i don't like too much) and call the re-raise (which i'm also not heaps keen on), we have to bet this flop, take control of the hand or get out of it quick smart.but to answer the q, i'd probably call a pot bet. without reads of course.

[macphec 0]

i think if we're raising $15 PF (which i don't like too much) and call the re-raise (which i'm also not heaps keen on), we have to bet this flop, take control of the hand or get out of it quick smart.but to answer the q, i'd probably call a pot bet. without reads of course.

A raise of $15 pf is more than standard at $2 $4. This is an easy fold pf too after the reraise.Check behind the turn b/c a check raise is coming a good amount of the time. I fold to a pot size bet on river.Seriously though, what do you guys open raise to at $2 $4? Please dont say min raise.

[screech 0]

Why aren't we raising the flop?We're 5 handed. I call this reraise for sure, especially consider this is the second time out of 2 chances he's had to do this to us. His bet on the flop is standard, we need to raise it.As played, we have no idea if we're up against as set, a straight steal, or something in between imo.I also agree with whoever posted that the pf raise is on the higher end. As I say in almost every post lately, you're just stuffing the pot for no reason, and making it cost a ton to find out where you're at.Mark

I thought the $15 pf raise was standard. Anyway, the reason I never raised the flop was because I wanted to control the pot size. I wasn't thrilled with my hand (a good reason why I probably should have folded pf), but I knew I was ahead of his range. Basically, worse hand aren't calling a flop reraise, and better hands are. When he checked the turn, I used the same logic. I wanted to see showdown, control the pot size, and keep a hand like JJ in there. On the river, he checked, I bet 60, and he called. He had AJ, and I lose. I think the only mistake I made was calling pf (I was pissed he pulled the same **** on me in 2 orbits). If anyone thinks I ****ed up postflop, please explain why. Thanks.I have no idea what I'm doing in NL.

Am I the only one who puts in a 2/3 pot sized bet on this turn?His check is incredibly weak, so if he calls a bet here, itmay save us money on the river.I'm thinking a turn bet takes this pot down though if he hasan underpair.

Please explain why this is better than inducing a bluff/call with an underpair on the river. Thanks.

That's definitely a good alternative line. The line we took saves us money when we're behind, but we have to call the river bet/bluff that we're attempting to induce.

Cobalt, you would destroy me at nl - that's a given. But the reason I took this line was to save myself money. What's the difference whether I put in a 2/3s bet now or on the river? The reason I never put in a bet on the turn, was that I never wanted him to get a jittery and go all in on the river - or the turn for that matter. I wanted to see showdown. I am a limit player and I have a pair of aces god****it!Edit: Nevermind. I can't read. We agree.

[Jordan 1]

screech, you're not gonna be a winning player in NL trying to "save money".Take that fwiw.I understand your logic in the hand, and agree with it...but in NL you need to do a lot more betting and raising. If I'm calling a re-raise with this hand preflop its cause I'm going to try and steal from him postflop if he shows weakness.Your bet on the river isn't going to get any hands to fold, regardless if they have Top pair, or even 2nd pair.I only dislike your call of his re-raise preflop because of how you played it postflop.That's my theory, I dunno...I'm a bit more volatile maybe, but whatever..just my thoughts.- Jordan

[BIG_L_RIP 0]

there is no need to raise this flop. Either you're WA and he's drawing to 2 outs, or you're crushed. FWIW, he could very well play AA/KK/AK like this. You might have foiled his turn C/R attempt, though it's unlikely at those stakes, and that meager flop bet. More likely QQ went up in smoke.I don't mind the turn check either, and controlling pot size. You don't have a monster here. Also, it might induce a river bet, or force him to call your river bet if you do happen to be ahead.

[screech 0]

screech, you're not gonna be a winning player in NL trying to "save money".Take that fwiw.I understand your logic in the hand, and agree with it...but in NL you need to do a lot more betting and raising. If I'm calling a re-raise with this hand preflop its cause I'm going to try and steal from him postflop if he shows weakness.Your bet on the river isn't going to get any hands to fold, regardless if they have Top pair, or even 2nd pair.I only dislike your call of his re-raise preflop because of how you played it postflop.That's my theory, I dunno...I'm a bit more volatile maybe, but whatever..just my thoughts.- Jordan

Jordan,My NL philosophy is not 'try to save money'. I play a LAG style because no one likes to call pf, and if they do, they don't like to call the flop if they miss. I really don't understand what your stance is on my postflop play. Are you calling preflop, with the intent of forcing a hand like AJ out of the pot postflop when an ace hits? That seems like a losing strategy to me. Then again, I don't play much NL. Please explain.

there is no need to raise this flop. Either you're WA and he's drawing to 2 outs, or you're crushed. FWIW, he could very well play AA/KK/AK like this. You might have foiled his turn C/R attempt, though it's unlikely at those stakes, and that meager flop bet. More likely QQ went up in smoke.I don't mind the turn check either, and controlling pot size. You don't have a monster here. Also, it might induce a river bet, or force him to call your river bet if you do happen to be ahead.

Big L,I love you because you agree with me and you have good taste in rap music.

[CobaltBlue 662]

Why aren't we raising the flop?...you're just stuffing the pot for no reason, and making it cost a ton to find out where you're at.

:)Seriously though, like others have concluded...this is basically a WA/WB scenario. We either outflopped him or we didn't. If we did, he's likely drawing to two or three outs...though possibly as many as five if he's got KQ. We'd like to keep the pot size down with this marginal hand that might be ahead, but that could very well be crushed.

[Jordan 1]

Jordan,My NL philosophy is not 'try to save money'. I play a LAG style because no one likes to call pf, and if they do, they don't like to call the flop if they miss. I really don't understand what your stance is on my postflop play. Are you calling preflop, with the intent of forcing a hand like AJ out of the pot postflop when an ace hits? That seems like a losing strategy to me. Then again, I don't play much NL. Please explain.

Ok, kewl. I didn't think your philosophy was to try and save money. I was hoping the above was the case.The thing about the hand is that you had position but never really put him to a tough decision. I really don't see the aggressive part in this hand (for the LAG style at least) -- I know you mean in generaly you play LAG, so maybe this was just a different...way to play it.I know it's a wa/wb scenario on the flop, but with his flop bet (which was kinda weak) I think it opens up the play to take it away from him.I'd do this by A) raising the flop, or B) applying a stern bet ion the turn, instead of checking behind (and now it looks like youre on some sort of draw, or if he is thinking backwards, you have a strong hand and are looking to induce a river bet). If he c/r me...meh, I'll fold..whatever.Your bet on the river is what I disagree with most. It's a value bet, but our hand has little value. If he's a decent player he'll probably be mucking most underpairs here. Our bet basically doesn't get anyone to fold and only invites a call. Maybe this is where we are differnt and where our "LAG" style is different. I bet pots for sizes of the pot or near close just about every time. I've found it puts other guys to tougher decisions and it makes them make more mistakes. Of course I get caught semi-bluffing here or there, but I also get paid off a lot with my random hands that I bet the same everytime.So meh, if I was in the hand and wanted to bet this river I personally would be firing a bet that makes him squirm in his seat, not a non-consequential bet of $60. I'm betting to get him to fold, not to intice him into calling.- Jordan

:)Seriously though, like others have concluded...this is basically a WA/WB scenario. We either outflopped him or we didn't. If we did, he's likely drawing to two or three outs...though possibly as many as five if he's got KQ. We'd like to keep the pot size down with this marginal hand that might be ahead, but that could very well be crushed.

I'm fine with keeping pot sizes small. Really I am. I'm not just wildly throwing bets out on all streets, I hope you guys get that. But when he checks, or even bets that flop, he's giving us a chance to take the lead. That's how I look at NLHE Cash games atleast...if I'm given the opportunity to take a hand, I'll usually go for it, IF I think my opponent is able to lay a hand down and is uncomfortable in the hand.We onnly really find out by betting. Sure checking keeps the pot small, but betting my end the pot immediately.- Jordan

[screech 0]

Maybe this is where we are differnt and where our "LAG" style is different. I bet pots for sizes of the pot or near close just about every time. I've found it puts other guys to tougher decisions and it makes them make more mistakes. Of course I get caught semi-bluffing here or there, but I also get paid off a lot with my random hands that I bet the same everytime.

By LAG style, I mean I am aggressive and play a lot of hands pf. I don't mindlessly raise postflop. Who said LAGs gotta be dumb?

So meh, if I was in the hand and wanted to bet this river I personally would be firing a bet that makes him squirm in his seat, not a non-consequential bet of $60. I'm betting to get him to fold, not to intice him into calling.

I really don't understand this. I have no read on my opponent, and given that, I have a hard time believing an unknown will fold on the river. A bluff seems pointless to me. It certainly won't fold a hand > 50% required to make it worthwhile. Your point about him not calling with an underpair is a valid one. Maybe I should have bet a bit less on the river to entice a call. My philosophy against unknowns is that they call to much, so that's why I played the hand as I did -not trying to run out AQ/AJ, and making a decent size value bet on the river.

[NoSup4U 0]

:)Seriously though, like others have concluded...this is basically a WA/WB scenario. We either outflopped him or we didn't. If we did, he's likely drawing to two or three outs...though possibly as many as five if he's got KQ. We'd like to keep the pot size down with this marginal hand that might be ahead, but that could very well be crushed.

I absolutely agree. But my question is, how do you know? You're calling the flop here. The only reason why everyone isn't chastizing this call like they would normally, is because the guy checked the turn. If he pots it on the turn, then what? Are you folding? If so, then why even call the flop? And if not, then why not raise right there, and avoid what is going to be a costly call on the turn and/or river if you decide to go that route, which is exactly what happened.As it played out, if he raises the flop, he might induce a fold from a tight AJ player, but probably gets called, it gets checked down, and he costs himself less. It could play out a million ways I guess. But generally, finding out where we are on the flop is better than on the river when the cards are flipped over no?MarkAnother thought: Maybe my thinking is more along this line because I wouldn't have raised so much pf, so generally raising a flop bet isn't as scary/costly relative to those who raise 4X pf. (For what its worth, I would have raised to 10 in this scenario. I would think my ATs was way ahead, espeically in position, and want to get some action from loose blinds)Mark

[CobaltBlue 662]

A smaller pre-flop raise would definitely make this hand easier to play. Since we went biggish and the blind came over the top, we're a bit more worried about his range.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

A smaller pre-flop raise would definitely make this hand easier to play. Since we went biggish and the blind came over the top, we're a bit more worried about his range.

This is 2/4 NL, no? He raised to 15....How much smaller are we making this preflop raise?BTW, I'm folding preflop..and we all know how much I hate folding. OOP + Trap hand = Bad things.As played, check/call a pot sized bet on the river and laugh when we see we snapped QQ.

[CobaltBlue 662]

This is 2/4 NL, no? He raised to 15....How much smaller are we making this preflop raise?

I prefer something in the 12-14 range. I don't think it's a huge deal to raise this much pre-flop, but I prefer to have a reason for going bigger than 3.5xBB.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I prefer something in the 12-14 range. I don't think it's a huge deal to raise this much pre-flop, but I prefer to have a reason for going bigger than 3.5xBB.

Agreed. That doesn't stick in my craw, much, though. Think you guys have covered most of it already. Good times.

[Smasharoo 0]

Flop: ($94) 2IPB Image, KIPB Image, AIPB Image (2 players)BB bets $45, Hero calls $45.Light.What are you drawing at exactly, running tens? Your call preflop is because you have implied odds to flop a big hand, right? You didn't. good luck.

[DrZebra 0]

Haven't read replies...don't care to.Screech, you are wa/wb. If he checks, you check behind.If he bets, you call.You should've bet/folded the turn (50-70) then check behind if he calls then checks to you.The way you played it you have to call 100 on the river.

[XXEddie 0]

I call everything, but even I would fold that preflop to the RR.

you play too tightOP mentioned that the BB re-raised him once before and OP just sat down. BB could be trying to re-steal from you considering he might think your on a steal. Not to mention your in position. Honestly BB is on a complete bluff to me. He tried to represent the A on the flop and once it failed he gave up. Im auto-calling even around pot sized or lower and betting 1/2 pot if checked to

[bdc30 0]

Please explain why this is better than inducing a bluff/call with an underpair on the river. Thanks.

3 hands that I'm fearful of at the turn that I DO NOT want to givea free card to are Q J , Q 10 , and J 10 . These are all possible hands that the villain could have, as it's a very draw-heavy board, and you have no pieceof any draw that might get there on the river.If a third club falls, and he bets the river, you can't call.There are so many cards that are bad for your hand thatbetting it, and attempting to take it down on the turn, isthe way I'd be trying to approach it.