10 replies to this topic

[jcdoerre]

10 handed game.MP calls,Hero raises with :card_diamonds_10:Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, MP calls.Flop: :card_clubs_2:SB bets, BB folds, MP calls, Hero calls, Button calls.Turn: SB checks, MP bets, Hero raises, Button calls, SB calls, MP calls.River: :card_hearts_2:SB checks, MP checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB folds, MP calls.

[amarillotg]

raise the flop. hand plays differently from there.

[looshle]

amarillotg, on Thursday, April 27th, 2006, 7:35 PM, said:

raise the flop. hand plays differently from there.

[aim786]

I disagree. I really like the way the OP played this hand. Raising the flop when there are many scare cards that can fall on the turn is a bad idea. Your pushing a much bigger equity edge when the safe turn falls as oppose to raising right away on the flop.

[looshle]

aim786, on Thursday, April 27th, 2006, 9:15 PM, said:

I disagree. I really like the way the OP played this hand. Raising the flop when there are many scare cards that can fall on the turn is a bad idea. Your pushing a much bigger equity edge when the safe turn falls as oppose to raising right away on the flop.

Well I guess you could call and c/f when 1/2 of the deck hits, or you could raise the flop with the best hand, get the button, take control of the hand, and increase your chances of winning.

[Actuary]

aim786, on Thursday, April 27th, 2006, 9:15 PM, said:

I disagree. I really like the way the OP played this hand. Raising the flop when there are many scare cards that can fall on the turn is a bad idea. Your pushing a much bigger equity edge when the safe turn falls as oppose to raising right away on the flop.

Your relative pos is bad.You won't necessarily be able to protect hand anyways.Just raise flop now for value.imo.

[Shimmering Wang]

aim786, on Friday, April 28th, 2006, 1:15 AM, said:

I disagree. I really like the way the OP played this hand. Raising the flop when there are many scare cards that can fall on the turn is a bad idea. Your pushing a much bigger equity edge when the safe turn falls as oppose to raising right away on the flop.

What is your plan if the board pairs on the turn?What is your plan if someone gets aggressive when an overcard comes on the turn?What is your plan if a spade hits?What is your plan if someone gets crazy when an offsuit 6 comes?Raise the flop. Plays like this look best when they work, and they look terrible when you force yourself into a mistake on the turn. Raising the flop forces the button to fold, or call incorrectly with overs/middle pair hands, or other drawing hands (maybe).I always preach: LET YOUR OPPONENTS MAKE MISTAKES. Any time you have an opportunity to put a player in a situation where it's LIKELY he'll make a mistake, you have to take it. It had better be a VERY obviously profitable situation if you're going to sacrifice present value for future value. Trust me.... I flunked an accounting class.Wang

[aim786]

Lol hmmm, just reread the part in SSHE about 2 overpair hands for the millionth time....The differenece is in those hands you can actually protect your hand on the turn, whereas here you cannot. I see your guy's point.

[jcdoerre]

Thanks for the advice all, I agree with all of you that I should have raised the flop. The reason I didn't is because I wanted to wait till the turn and either a.) get away easily if the flush draw hit or b.) raise the larger street for more money. The button had shown no strength and I figured raising on the flop would only drive the button out and probably cause any hands I'm ahead of to check to me on the flop, while any hands that I'm behind would probably bet. So raising on the flop, I figured, would net one extra small bet while possibly costing me another big bet on the turn. The danger of course is that the button hits an overcard. I figured I was out if an overcard hit anyway, cause SB could have one and MP probably had one.In retrospect this was probably a bad decision, not because of the result of this hand (which is irrelevant to what the right play is) but because I wasn't giving myself the best chance to win by driving out the button. In this instance button likely wouldn't have folded to a raise, but many times he might have. I still am not entirely convinced that calling here is incorrect, but I definitely agree that raising here is a solid move.Just to answer shimmering wang, I definitely see what you mean about being in trouble if certain cards hit, but I'm not entirely sure why those cards aren't going to be trouble if you raise as well. I don't see SB or MP folding to a raise when they already put money in, and I have no idea what I do if SB re-raises me. Not that I shouldn't make the play because I'm scared of the re-raise, but the fact of the matter is I have no idea where I am in this hand. I think you are all correct and a raise is correct here, I just think it's very close and a check isn't that bad.As it turned out, the button had pocket jacks, but that doesn't really change whether a raise or a call was the correct play.

[Actuary]

Button: He don't play too good. Play with him A LOT.

[Shimmering Wang]

jcdoerre, on Friday, April 28th, 2006, 4:10 PM, said:

Just to answer shimmering wang, I definitely see what you mean about being in trouble if certain cards hit, but I'm not entirely sure why those cards aren't going to be trouble if you raise as well. I don't see SB or MP folding to a raise when they already put money in, and I have no idea what I do if SB re-raises me. Not that I shouldn't make the play because I'm scared of the re-raise, but the fact of the matter is I have no idea where I am in this hand. I think you are all correct and a raise is correct here, I just think it's very close and a check isn't that bad.As it turned out, the button had pocket jacks, but that doesn't really change whether a raise or a call was the correct play.

Well, if a bad card comes and you get outdrawn by MP or BB or SB, you're going to lose the hand. But raising the flop could force the button to make a mistake (by calling) or win you the pot (when he folds overs or middle/bottom pair or a gutshot).At the same time, you make the hand easy to play, and can define your opponents' hands cheaply. By raising the flop, you force your oppoenents to raise ONLY when they have you beaten. If a baby spade comes off, and you bet the turn, but get check/raised, you're probably beaten and can safely fold (absent reads). If the Ac slides off, you can follow the same reasoning. If a safe card comes on the turn, go ahead and bet again. Then, if a scare card rolls off on the river and the pot's still 3 handed, you can just go ahead and check behind. Look, there are so FEW cards you can safely raise for value on the turn that you have to do it now. Even if an ugly card comes off, and you STILL have the best hand, you're no longer going to get value from your opponents. Many players will simply check/fold a spade with no spade draw, or an over when they whiff the turn. You rate to have enough equity to pound the flop, so take advantage since you're in position.Man, I'm drunk again. Maybe I'll clean this up later.Wang