Jj, Ace Hits Turn

[Actuary 3]

well..I've seen enough of these hands in the Limit Forums..so I'll post one here becuase I'm sure you all have never ever seen this situation posted. 6 Man $20+2, Party.1st: $722nd: $48Hand Number 1 at Table.Stacks t2000Blinds: t20 / t40Actuary on Button with JJ.MP limps, Actuary raises to t150, Blinds fold, Limper calls.Pot t360Flop: 3 8 T ®Limper checks, Actuary bets t230, Limper calls.Pot t820Turn: A (no FD)Limper checksNow.... what's best here, against unknown at Party $20+2 ?Bet about 350 and fold to a Reraise ?Check to induce river bet and hope - it's a worse hand - a bluff (unlikely on drawless board) - small enough that it's less than you would lose to the Ace/Set if you have lead turn and called riverFold if river bet is > 300 ???And if we bet turn and he calls.. and he leads river - I guess it depends on his bet amount ??And if he doesn't lead river, I suspect we take a free SD.In NL Tournies, I don't bet in Pos for value on River like I would in Limit, w/o stronger hands.thanks..you get the jist.**** ps feel free to comment on rest of hand.But mainly looking for overall concept

[shpaget 0]

yeesh...could be a straight draw(eg. 9Js)...could be A8s.I may have bet a little more on the flop, but nothing wrong with 230.Unless he's supremely tricky or suffering from FPS I gotta think he's gonna bet his ace if he has it.I'm more inclined to think that your flop bet looked like a cb to him (with, say, AK), and that he now thinks you have hit the ace, and will likely fold to a bet.So, he's either on the straight draw, or a middle pair, and worried, or he has two pair/set and really hopes you have AK and will bet.If you're willing to call a 300ish bet on the river I think you may as well lay a 300-400ish bet on the turn, in case he is drawing to something.To check here you gotta know he's willing to bluff the river, or bet his 89 for "value".

[Rocketwadster 0]

I think you definately need to bet the turn. 1/2 to 3/4's of the pot. If he pushes, you can fold.If he calls, then leads out, its probably a fold. If he calls and checks the river, I think you take the free showdown.

[Actuary 3]

I think you definately need to bet the turn. 1/2 to 3/4's of the pot. If he pushes, you can fold.

I'm down to 1200 or less then if/when I have to fold.I realize I need to charge him if he has 3-8 outs, though, hmmm..Is the risk of giving him the free card offset by the chance to show this down for less on the river. He may "value bet" or bluff for far less tha t500 that you are suggesting I use to bet the turn.Then again, if he's a decent player..he might push the River with Air, expecting that I"m scared of the Ace.

[shpaget 0]

I'm down to 1200 or less then if/when I have to fold.I realize I need to charge him if he has 3-8 outs, though, hmmm..Is the risk of giving him the free card offset by the chance to show this down for less on the river. He may "value bet" or bluff for far less tha t500 that you are suggesting I use to bet the turn.Then again, if he's a decent player..he might push the River with Air, expecting that I"m scared of the Ace.

There is some offset here which is why you don't always need to make him pay to draw....there are enough times where, if you check the turn, he will bluff on the river, or "value" bet with a worse hand, to make it a consideration. And my first instinct says he's just as scared of the ace as you are, and a check on the turn can very easily make 89 think he's winning.If you are willing to give the free card then you need to be able to get away when it looks like he hit his draw.

[Zach6668 513]

I think you definately need to bet the turn. 1/2 to 3/4's of the pot. If he pushes, you can fold.If he calls, then leads out, its probably a fold. If he calls and checks the river, I think you take the free showdown.

That's my standard. Unless he donks the river for the min, which a lot of people will do, then I'm looking him up, always.

[cu in 4years Dan 1]

glad to see im makign the correct raise to 150 when blinds are 20 and 40 lol.

[Zach6668 513]

glad to see im makign the correct raise to 150 when blinds are 20 and 40 lol.

Raise to whatever you want. Standard is 3x the BB, but more at the early stages is typical, because opponents are more willing to call with anything, so we should want to build a pot, and get them to put more money in with worse hands.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Raise to whatever you want. Standard is 3x the BB, but more at the early stages is typical, because opponents are more willing to call with anything, so we should want to build a pot, and get them to put more money in with worse hands.

While I agree that 3-4X the BB is considered standard at various stages of a tourney (not the later stages due to thesize of the blinds), I like to incorporate a little Harrington into my equations, where I will raise less with aces and kings than I would with queens and jacks, as I want to encourage action with the aces and kings, be discourage action (from multiple opponents) with the queens and jacks.

[Zach6668 513]

While I agree that 3-4X the BB is considered standard at various stages of a tourney (not the later stages due to thesize of the blinds), I like to incorporate a little Harrington into my equations, where I will raise less with aces and kings than I would with queens and jacks, as I want to encourage action with the aces and kings, be discourage action (from multiple opponents) with the queens and jacks.

Yeah sure, I meant to add that it's good to fold hands like KQ that would call a smaller raise when we hold JJ, TT, etc.The only thing I see with the min raise with AA and KK is that it's pretty transparent. If something crazy happens, and there is another good player, they will notice something is out of whack.- Zach

[Rocketwadster 0]

Its not necessarily a min-raise that I am referring to, but I know what you are saying. I should also mention that I don't always do the same thing with the same type of hands, as there are situational circumstances where you may need/want to raise more with your aces and kings which happens more times than you may think(ie. you raised 4X the BB with AK and everyone folded, next hand you got queens and raised a similar amount and everyone folded, THEN you get aces/kings and figure that your opponents are getting tired of your constant agression (through no fault of your own - its just the cards), so you raise a little more this time with your aces/kings and get people raising you...)Tis a wonderful game isn't it...

[mmmikeySong 0]

is he aggressive or passive?Aggressive - i check and hope he doesn't bet too much on river - don't want to get all-in'd for the re-raisepassive - I definitely bet that turn. If he re-raises, I let it goI'm afraid of AX suitedvery common play in sngs

[Actuary 3]

Results:I checked.He bet 300 on river.I called.He had A9 off.overall, I'm ok with the play.

[mmmikeySong 0]

Results:I checked.He bet 300 on river.I called.He had A9 off.overall, I'm ok with the play.

same. 300's a short price for info to see that he'll call w/just A high on the flop for almost a pot bet.