27 replies to this topic

[DanielNegreanu]

You are playing 2-7 single draw NL with a $100,000 cap, meaning that once the betting reaches $100,000 per player, there is no more betting. The blinds are $1000-$2000 with a $1000 ante and you are in an eight handed game so there is already $11,000 in the pot before the cards are dealt. Gus Hansen, who you know to be a pretty loose player, raises to $12,000 UTG and Eli Elezra caps the betting at $100,0000. This is a pretty common play in this game as the betting generally goes $10,000.... cap. You look down at 9-8-7-4-3 in late position. You only have two options: call the bet, or fold.

[shpaget]

DanielNegreanu, on Wednesday, April 26th, 2006, 6:35 PM, said:

You are playing 2-7 single draw NL with a $100,000 cap, meaning that once the betting reaches $100,000 per player, there is no more betting. The blinds are $1000-$2000 with a $1000 ante and you are in an eight handed game so there is already $11,000 in the pot before the cards are dealt. Gus Hansen, who you know to be a pretty loose player, raises to $12,000 UTG and Eli Elezra caps the betting at $100,0000. This is a pretty common play in this game as the betting generally goes $10,000.... cap. You look down at 9-8-7-4-3 in late position. You only have two options: call the bet, or fold.

I call in position and then evaluate as Gus and Eli are drawing (or standing pat) in front of me. Gus is loose and Eli knows this...Eli can also be loose....is Eli gonna push everyone else out of the pot with a wheel, or a 76 or even 86? Or more likely with a wheel draw?The odds that both, or even one of them, are also dealt pat hands are tremendous...they likely both have one card draws to decent lows....and you have 4 of their outs.If one or both stand pat then you can decide to draw to your 2, 6 or 5....or, even then stand pat. You at least have good drawing hand in that no single-card draw will complete a straight. Unless I'm very wrong 98 will win a lot of hands in single draw 2-7. Against tighter players I think it's a fold, you don't want to be drawing without a 2 in your hand, but against two loose players who have simply made a typical raise, reraise, I think this is a call and is the best hand more often than it's not.

[XXEddie]

DanielNegreanu, on Wednesday, April 26th, 2006, 6:35 PM, said:

You are playing 2-7 single draw NL with a $100,000 cap, meaning that once the betting reaches $100,000 per player, there is no more betting. The blinds are $1000-$2000 with a $1000 ante and you are in an eight handed game so there is already $11,000 in the pot before the cards are dealt. Gus Hansen, who you know to be a pretty loose player, raises to $12,000 UTG and Eli Elezra caps the betting at $100,0000. This is a pretty common play in this game as the betting generally goes $10,000.... cap. You look down at 9-8-7-4-3 in late position. You only have two options: call the bet, or fold.

One million dollars??? I foldok, obvious you meant 100kI call. Eli probabbly thinks Gus is being Gus and is hoping he can just take it down right here, but wouldnt mind a draw with his smooth J(J-6/J-7)call.

[fleung22]

DanielNegreanu, on Wednesday, April 26th, 2006, 6:35 PM, said:

You are playing 2-7 single draw NL with a $100,000 cap, meaning that once the betting reaches $100,000 per player, there is no more betting. The blinds are $1000-$2000 with a $1000 ante and you are in an eight handed game so there is already $11,000 in the pot before the cards are dealt. Gus Hansen, who you know to be a pretty loose player, raises to $12,000 UTG and Eli Elezra caps the betting at $100,0000. This is a pretty common play in this game as the betting generally goes $10,000.... cap. You look down at 9-8-7-4-3 in late position. You only have two options: call the bet, or fold.

Maybe I'm too tight but I gotta say fold.This is a situation where you have a hand you can bet the cap with but you can't call. The best hand is going to win at this point.If you're just drawing 1 card you may already be drawing dead. If not by Eli or Gus then perhaps one of the players yet to act behind you.Drawing 2 cards is a little too suicidle for me at $100K.Pot equity is low vs. the risk...again, I might just be too tight.The real question is...HOW DID I END UP IN THE BIG GAME!?!?

[Jdr999]

I voted call because while it's a very weak 9-high, you have position, and can see if the other player draws before you have the option, and if you do chose to draw, the 6,5,2 are all clean outs.And Daniel, why is it $1000-$2000 with $1000 ante? Is it because the smallest chips you have is $1000? I just feel that the No Limit and Pot-Limit games you play in the big game with a $100K cap and $1000-$2000 blinds is a very poor stucture as it is mainly a pre-flop/pre-draw game, and very limited post flop/draw. You only have 50 times the big blind in play, and I believe it limits what you can play.

[fleung22]

Jdr999, on Wednesday, April 26th, 2006, 10:18 PM, said:

I voted call because while it's a very weak 9-high, you have position, and can see if the other player draws before you have the option, and if you do chose to draw, the 6,5,2 are all clean outs.And Daniel, why is it $1000-$2000 with $1000 ante? Is it because the smallest chips you have is $1000? I just feel that the No Limit and Pot-Limit games you play in the big game with a $100K cap and $1000-$2000 blinds is a very poor stucture as it is mainly a pre-flop/pre-draw game, and very limited post flop/draw. You only have 50 times the big blind in play, and I believe it limits what you can play.

6, 5 and 2 give you 12 "maybe" outs. I say maybe because even if you hit one of them somebody may already have you beat.The chances are very good that Gus and Eli either have a made hand or are drawing strong. This means that many of those 6, 5 and 2 are already gone.If this was a shorthanded situation I might play differently but since there are 8 players I'm gonna stick to the fold.I'm really interested to see what Daniel says. I'd definitely be learning more if I'm wrong and I kinda hope I am wrong.

[FullMontyM1]

From my limited knowledge of 2-7 nlsd, it would definetly be useful to have a range on Eli, what sort of hands does he do this with, does he only do it with a pat hand or a certain kind of draw.I think the decision is very close. Calling and standing pat loses some of it's value because you can't force others out with another bet after standing pat. The hand dealt is in the top 50 or so hands possible, so the chances that someone else has been dealt an equal or better pat hand at an 8 person table is probably around 30-40%. Gus' bet and Eli's cap probably increases the probability to the 40%+ range. You have to call 100k to win 120k, so you may be getting the proper odds. You are in late position, so you will get to see what Gus and Eli do. If either one of them stands pat you will have to draw, if both draw you can stand pat.I think it's probably a call since you will have more information than either of them when making decisions and you have a hand that you can stand pat with if they both draw. If Eli is a tight 2-7 player, then it is probably a fold.Monty

[Jdr999]

fleung22, on Thursday, April 27th, 2006, 7:32 AM, said:

6, 5 and 2 give you 12 "maybe" outs. I say maybe because even if you hit one of them somebody may already have you beat.The chances are very good that Gus and Eli either have a made hand or are drawing strong. This means that many of those 6, 5 and 2 are already gone.If this was a shorthanded situation I might play differently but since there are 8 players I'm gonna stick to the fold.I'm really interested to see what Daniel says. I'd definitely be learning more if I'm wrong and I kinda hope I am wrong.

Main reason I call is because I am in position, which is very important in 2-7 NL, and because I feel Eli does not need a big hand to do this with against Gus, and could do this with a hand like 10-8-7-5-2. And the most important thing for me is that Eli or Gus would act first to draw if they called me. This can determine if you draw a card or stay.

[FullMontyM1]

When you call though, what if Eli knows you probably do this with a hand that you can stand pat on if he draws. Is Eli's best move to stand pat with a drawing hand, to encourage you to draw to a hand that is already better than his?If Eli stands pat, you almost have to draw, I think. Eli knows this, so Eli can stand pat with an inferior hand, forcing you to decide whether to draw. This doesn't help answer the question, necessarily, it's just something I thought of reading through the responses.Monty

[BigDMcGee]

Well, I guess it would depend if you are going to shut out gus with your call. My knowledge of 2-7 is quite limited, but as I understand it, when you have a rough made hand ( and a 987 is rough, as far as I know.. you have one of the worst possible nine's) you want to play it heads up against a draw.. so, if you think that A) Eli's drawing and B) Gus will fold then yo ushould call. But if you go heads up against two hands, then you could be in a world of hurt. Because they will either A) Be drawing to a better hand than yours ( IE a smooth low) or B) on of them is pat... Lets say you do make the call, Gus draws one, and Eli stands pat.. then what do you do? Stay pat behind him? You can't break up your hand, and draw for anything that will beat gus if he hits what he's drawing to. You draw to an 8, and it's a rough 8... you drop the 9 and 8, and you're just nuts. No, I think this hand is way too tricky to call Eli's bet with... It it was just you and Gus, I'd say you would raise for sure, and get your money it.. but multi way, the hand just isn't good enough to take advantage of your position... like... If your hand was something like 10 7 4 3 2, I think this is a better hand to call with in position than a made rough nine. If they both draw, you can pat, and if one pats, you can break your hand, and go for something smooth.The one part about this hand is that I may be confused with how powerful a made nine is, any made nine... But I'd rather have a smooth 10, than a rough nine.

[FullMontyM1]

BigDMcGee, on Thursday, April 27th, 2006, 4:37 PM, said:

The one part about this hand is that I may be confused with how powerful a made nine is, any made nine... But I'd rather have a smooth 10, than a rough nine.

I referred to it as a top 50 hand above. I went and checked it out for exactness, and it is the 46th ranked low in 2-7, 45 hands being better than it is.The chance of someone having been dealt a better hand than a 9-8 is: 1.3%The chance of someone being dealt a 9-8 or better is: 2.91%The chance of someone being dealt a 10-9 through 10-5 is: 2.71%The chances of drawing to a 7/8/9 for Gus and Eli are low enough to make the rough 9 a favorite to stand pat, I think.Couple that with position, and being able to draw if Eli stands pat (presuming Gus drops out), and I -think- it is a call. But I am by no means certain, I have some limited 2-7 experience and NO NL 2-7 single draw experience.So the answer, I think, comes down to -what- Eli would cap with. If Eli would cap with a one-card draw to a 7-10, then it is a clear call, the only problem then being, what if Eli decides to stand pat once you call, if he decides he is beat and attempts to force a draw.Monty

[Bubba83]

It's a fold because while it is true you have position and can see how many if any at all Gus or Eli draw, that won't help you much. If Gus calls and draws, and Eli stands pat, we have to draw, but what do we draw to? 1 to an 8 7? That might not even be good if we make the draw, and we sure as hell don't want to draw 2 in a single draw game where we are all-in before the first draw. The best situation we can be in is if Gus folds and we are heads up in position against Eli, but is Gus going to fold very often here? I don't really think so.

[cgrohman]

You have a pat 9, but its a bad 9. You are being beaten my any 8, any better 9, or the 7s. What may be happening is that Eli is putting a play on Gus. He has capped it in position with something like a J or 10 high. He will hope Gus, a loose player folds, but if he doesn't fold he can choose whether or not to draw.Despite this, with 2 players showing strength before you, I can think fo a better spot for $100K unless you have a superb read.P.S. Many props to Daniel for branching out away from the hold'em questions.

[No_Neck]

I have no business making a stab at this but I think you have to fold.I mean are you going to draw 2 here? or do you think a bad 8 might be good?

[Glitch29]

I did some quick calculations, and it looks like the odds of anyone else at the table being dealt a better pat hand than your 9-8 is roughly 12%. Given the heavy action, we can safely increase that likelyhood to 50%. We can assume that anyone without a better pat hand is drawing to beat us with about 12 outs, or a 30% chance of winning. Against the better pat hands however, we are drawing rough, and have an average of 8 outs to win, or 20%.Ignoring Gus for a second, let's pretend we call the bet. If Eli stands pat, we have a question of whether or not to break. To make the math easy, I'm going to assume that Eli will have a worse hand about 20% of the time he stands pat, so our decision doesn't matter.Then our odds of winning are:40% (Eli is drawing) * 70% (His draw misses)=28%+10% (Eli stands pat with a worse hand)*100%=10%+50% (Eli stands pat with a better hand)*0%=0%=38%Our pot odds are 123:100, so we need to win about 45% of the time to make a profit. So calling looks to be -EV by about 15K.Adding Gus back into the picture only changes things slightly for the worse. There will be half as much dead money in the pot, and we could be put in the hurt-locker of being against a better pat hand, and a better draw. Even in the unlikely event that both Gus and Eli are drawing, there's a healthy 55% chance that one of them will make it.The bottom line is that if we're ahead, we're not that far ahead, and if we're behind, we're in a lot of trouble. We've invested virtually no money into this pot. Ditch it.I just realized we're not drawing rough - somehow I'd gotten 98754 stuck in my head. I still say ditch it though... drawing really shouldn't be a question anyway.

[yergan]

BigDMcGee, on Thursday, April 27th, 2006, 5:37 PM, said:

But I'd rather have a smooth 10, than a rough nine.

Can someone please explain the difference between a "smooth" hand and a "rough" hand.

[Bubba83]

Drawing rough is when you don't have as many cards to hit for your low because they will make your hand a straight. For example, 3456 is drawing rough, you can't even make a 7 low with that hand when you draw 1, even though it appears good. Smooth draws usually have 2 card gaps in them or more so you can't draw a straight. Say we were drawing one to a 7 low. A rough draw would be 2345, since we can only hit a 7. A smooth draw would be 234 7, since we could hit a 5 or 6.

[yergan]

Bubba83, on Monday, May 1st, 2006, 6:51 PM, said:

Drawing rough is when you don't have as many cards to hit for your low because they will make your hand a straight. For example, 3456 is drawing rough, you can't even make a 7 low with that hand when you draw 1, even though it appears good. Smooth draws usually have 2 card gaps in them or more so you can't draw a straight. Say we were drawing one to a 7 low. A rough draw would be 2345, since we can only hit a 7. A smooth draw would be 234 7, since we could hit a 5 or 6.

Cheers!

[LooseCannon]

Smooth and rough differentiate between the other cards in a lowball hand besides the highest card. The smooth hand is better.For example, comparing ten-low hands in 2-7, the smoothest ten-low hand you could have is T-5-4-3-2, while the roughest hand you could have is T-9-8-7-5. T-7-5-3-2 would be smoother than T-8-7-5-4. Rough means that the cards are bunched toward the high card in your hand, while smooth is the opposite.So, let's assume that you call. Either Gus will call, or he won't.If Gus doesn't call, then Eli will either draw or not draw cards. The all-in push likely signifies a pat hand or very strong draw here that wants to isolate. I've never played, but theoretically, I think this move could be made with something like a very smooth jack or ten, where you try to win the pot right there, but if you get callled and your opponent stands pat, you go for your draw. If Eli is called, I think he might stand pat with a nine but break a ten-low, in which case Daniel should draw one if Eli stands pat, but stand pat if Eli draws one. There's probably enough dead money in pot in this scenario for both players to make an overall profit, but I'm just guessing.If Gus does call, this can be broken down into four scenarios. Gus and Eli both stand pat, both draw, Gus stands pat and Eli draws, or Gus draws and Eli stands pat.If both players stand pat, a very rough nine isn't looking so good, and a drw to a rough eight doesn't seem so hot either, so Daniel might chase the miracle two-card draw to a 7-4-3. If both players draw, Daniel should obviously stand pat, especially since they are probably drawing to better hands and hold some of his outs.It gets murkier if one opponent draws and the the stands pat. Calling in late position is a sign that Daniel has a potential pat hand, so someone standing pat either has a better hand, or has a somewhat worse hand, trying to induce Daniel to break a better hand. In the first case, you are probably against a better pat hand and a better draw. I'm not sure what to do in the latter case.The more likely that Gus is to fold, the more appropriate it is to call. The more likely that Gus is to hold a pat hand, the more appropriate it is to fold. He may be loose, but how loose is he UTG vs. an eight-handed table?

[checkymcfold]

let's talk reads here, which is the key to this hand i think...i'm guessing gus has some sort of drawing hand, or perhaps nothing, but eli's cap means almost for sure that he's got something made that he wants to ISOLATE a drawing hand with. he knows gus is loose, and i'd be willing to make a prop bet that he's holding something like a made ten.since he's trying to isolate and not bring others in (as i think he would with a made 7 or a good 8), i'm pretty sure that we're good here most of the time. i'm calling this bet, making sure gus draws, and if eli stands pat, i'm staying too and raising him after the first draw if he doesn't cap it. if he does, then i'll reevaluate and leave myself open to a fold.if eli allows us to raise the draw, assuming gus folds (i can't imagine he'd call another cap unless he made something that beats us, in which case surrender), then i'm willing to bet eli assumes he's behind and draws a card next time. if he doesn't, then we've got to assume we're beat and draw after at least our 8.