15 replies to this topic

[somnambulist]

Is it ever correct to chase with AK after the flop? I remember T J Cloutier saying it is a terrible play in no limit, yet you see people doing it all the time online. I mean say you limped with AK, unraised pot, you have overcards, someone bets, maybe it's only a tiny bet but I usually get out - I don't know if my outs are clean so even if I turn an ace or a king I won't be able to bet with much confidence. Or if you called a preflop raise with AK, you hit nothing, if the raiser bets calling just with overcards seems very suspect to me, yet you see it a lot. Raising is better there if you think your opponent does not have much, but usually folding is the best option. Or if you raised preflop with AK, and you are bet into (or your bet is raised) on a flop that you missed, again you see people calling with AK high trying to catch an ace or a king. In that case raising has a lot going for it as you represented strength preflop and often people will fold if you raise fearing a big pair, but this should not be tried against a calling station and rerasing is an advanced play that will only work on strong players.Any suggestions would be much appreciated.(we are assuming the overcards are your only outs so if you have straight/flush draws aswell that makes your hand much stronger and different considerations apply. Also, assume the flop isn't something really dangerous like 3 to a straight or flush where even the most persistent of AK chasers would get out)

[KKsuited]

First off, it should never be an unraised pot if you have AK. A great way to play AK is to raise with it, then bet the flop. If everyone misses or there are scare cards, you can pick up the pot. If you get called, you still have some good outs.Folding everytime you miss the flop with AK is to tight. You're a coin flip with any pair IF all five cards come out.I think what you maybe confusing with TJ is chasing with AK when someone is showing strength. If they make strong bets, yes you should get out. If they make tiny bets, I'd raise to see how much they like their hand, then proceed from there.I think playing AK and poker in general is a little more complex than you are giving credit. Experience and studying should help you with that.

[wrto4556]

If I miss, I fold...kinda like the "no set, no bet" rule. I'm a rather tight player outside of tournament play, so if I don't get an A, K, or a flush draw i'm out. If the flop is Qh7d3s, your AKo only has 6 good outs. So, your a 3-1 dog against any QJ, and a 7-1 dog against any AQ or KQ.Unless the pot is just gargantuous I will not take another one off, it's -EV. Yet you see people do it all day...those are the players you want to play against, as are the guys who chase a broadway no matter what. For fun, let's say you still have AsKd...but the flop is QcTs2h. Now you would think you have 10 good outs (Ad, Ac, Ah, Kc, Ks, Kh, Js, Jd, Jc, Jh). The only problem with this thinking, is that anyone holding QT takes out 6 of your outs, AQ and KQ take out 3 of your outs. So, depending on the amount of players in the pot, your outs could be as abundant as 10 or as little as 4. Also, anyone holding KJ or AJ takes out 4 of your outs. O.K. let's rationalize, BTW i'm just brainstorming, might get some good arguements and learn something :idea: ....Opponents possible hands:AQ=7 outsAJ=6 outsAT=7 outsKQ=7 outsKJ=6 outsKT=7 outsQJ=9 outsQT=4 outsAA=4 outsKK=7 outsQQ=4 outsTT=4 outs22=4 outsJJ=8 outsFor reasons unknown we will not count other pocket pairs or Qx, Tx, or 2x. On average you will have 6 good outs head-up, making you a 3-1 dog, and have to be getting 3-1 effective odds. Unlikely if your head-up, right? The more people in the pot, the less outs you have, making you a probable 5-1 dog, and must be getting 5-1 effective odds.This is why I don't chase with AK0 unless I have the proper odds, which, more times than not, is going to be pretty high. Now, I normally don't chase because my mind sais "probably not", this is only an attempt to figure out why my mind sais that.

[somnambulist]

KK,I am sorry if my post sounded oversimplified or muddled. I am kind of new to poker forums. What I was saying was that if you agree with the widely held view that AK is a great hand because it so easy to let go of if you miss the flop (read eg the NL chapter in Supersystem), then passively chasing with it after the flop (the way that is often correct in limit) is a losing play in most cases. Yet you see it all the time online which is not really surprising since most players at these low stakes (up to 1/2NL) are pretty mediocre.There will be situations where you play AK in an unraised pot. There will also be situations when you call a raise with it rather than reraise so often you won't have the initiative on the flop. And the ones where you started with the initiative by rasing preflop but the initiative is taken away from you on the flop.I am not saying fold AK everytime you miss the flop, just that if you decide to continue with it after the flop, be the aggressor rather than the caller. (I have sometimes fired 4 barrels with an unimproved AK)You are a coin flip with any pair if one of you is all in preflop. That doesn't happen that often in money games.I guess an example of a situation where you can be passive with AK is inducing/snapping off a bluff on the end with AK high if you thought your opponent has missed a draw.

[wrto4556]

What the guy before me said was also very true....If you sense weakness a raise might be a good play. But if they are showing aggression I think of all the shit I just calculated.

[somnambulist]

Well said wrto 8) that was essentially my point

wrto4556 said:

If I miss, I fold...kinda like the "no set, no bet" rule. I'm a rather tight player outside of tournament play, so if I don't get an A, K, or a flush draw i'm out. If the flop is Qh7d3s, your AKo only has 6 good outs. So, your a    3-1 dog against any QJ, and a 7-1 dog against any AQ or KQ.Unless the pot is just gargantuous I will not take another one off, it's -EV. Yet you see people do it all day...those are the players you want to play against, as are the guys who chase a broadway no matter what.  For fun, let's say you still have AsKd...but the flop is QcTs2h. Now you would think you have 10 good outs (Ad, Ac, Ah, Kc, Ks, Kh, Js, Jd, Jc, Jh). The only problem with this thinking, is that anyone holding QT takes out 6 of your outs, AQ and KQ take out 3 of your outs. So, depending on the amount of players in the pot, your outs could be as abundant as 10 or as little as 4. Also, anyone holding KJ or AJ takes out 4 of your outs.  O.K. let's rationalize, BTW i'm just brainstorming, might get some good arguements and learn something :idea: ....Opponents possible hands:AQ=7 outsAJ=6 outsAT=7 outsKQ=7 outsKJ=6 outsKT=7 outsQJ=9 outsQT=4 outsAA=4 outsKK=7 outsQQ=4 outsTT=4 outs22=4 outsJJ=8 outsFor reasons unknown we will not count other pocket pairs or Qx, Tx, or 2x. On average you will have 6 good outs head-up, making you a 3-1 dog, and have to be getting 3-1 effective odds. Unlikely if your head-up, right? The more people in the pot, the less outs you have, making you a probable 5-1 dog, and must be getting 5-1 effective odds.This is why I don't chase with AK0 unless I have the proper odds, which, more times than not, is going to be pretty high. Now, I normally don't chase because my mind sais "probably not", this is only an attempt to figure out why my mind sais that.

[KKsuited]

I agree with your second post much more somna-The one thing I'm not sure about is an unraised pot with AK. Why would there be an unraised pot if you held AK? When would it be appropriate not to raise with AK?I can see not reraising. I rarely do that. But if it gets to me unraised, I'm raising everytime with AK. If I'm under the gun, I'll make a small raise and if I get reraise, I may lay it down.

[wrto4556]

KK, you'de limp for deception. Not very often, but it's a must so that you won't be raised every time you try to limp in with marginal hands. You're absolutely right, you would like to be head-up with AK, and the best way to do that, is to raise. But, for deceptive purposes, you must switch up your game and limp every once in a while.

[foodbanker]

I think the key question asked is what to do after the flop if you miss.I personally feel its all about who your opponent is that has called you. What the flop looks like and "What does the current opponent feel I may have."As long as the flop has some kind of big card I would bluff at it.I may still bluff at the pot and bet the size of the pot if my opponent is semi-tight and has shown previous respect of me.One more thing..if there is more than one opponent in seeing the flop..I"m automatically checking if I miss.A quick reply to the guy on "When would you be in a pot with AK and it be unraised"...Very simple...two solid players in front of you have limped in...It goes back to the the reason I disagree with most players on that subject. I prefer solid players on my right and loose players on my left. I've posted allot in here about that. Got some really angry replies on that one! lol. Oh well..we cannot always expect the world to agree with you. Plus..I'm probably wrong. hehe

[Metaphysician]

I mostly treat AK as a drawing hand, which it is. But I think there's great power in it's dominating abilities, so I try to be deceptive with it lately. I sometimes limp with it, sometimes raise. I usually raise the telltale AK amount. Then anyone half decent puts me on AK, and I confirm by showing. Then I limp the next time.. then I represent AK when I have something like 68 of clubs. Seems to work better for me that way, I used to have negative numbers with AK.In a loose game I limp with it alot... to encourage situations where It'll dominate other hands in a secretive fashion.

[KKsuited]

A couple things from me regarding 1) not raising with AK 2) loose vs. solid players on your left and right.1) I asked the question about why would you ever be in an unraised pot with AK. I got a couple responses about how you could see a flop, unraised with AK. Well, I from the aggressive, put maximum pressure on your opponent school of poker. There's no way I would ever be in a unraised pot with AK. I would be calling a raise made by another player (if it's not to big, I do fold AK sometimes) or you could bet your ass if it gets to me unraised, I'm going to RAISE IT UP! But that's just me.2) Foodbanker state he/she liked to have solid players on the right and loose players on the left. You also stated you differ on this subject with many players. As you should, that view is not the common view. Here's why.If there are loose players on you left, it is difficult to limp into pots with marginal hands (they will probably raise your limp). The biggest problem = loose players (which usually means aggressive bettors) have position on you. Therefore, if you bet, they will call, if you check, be prepared for a healthy bet.If loose players are on you left, you have position on them. You can catch them putting big bets into pots when you're holding a premium hand.Basically, to make a long story short, you want position on loose, aggressive players.

[srblan]

The only way I'd really want to have AK in an unraised pot is from the button or one off the button. That way, if I miss the flop and it is checked around to me, I can bet. If I hit the flop, I might catch someone with a bad kicker. Otherwise, I'd want to try to win a little pot. I'm not a big fan of chasing with ak unless there is some type of draw, backdoor or otherwise, which I can hit. A pair with a kicker is often not enough to win in no limit, so if I have something like overcards with a gutshot, or a backdoor flush, I am much more comfortable putting in money with ak.

[chapmanlaw]

my school of thinking is simple... if you don't know where you are in the hand, reraise. Make him decide. What he does will tell you everything you need to know. I don't know what limit you play, but I can't imagine winning consistently without putting pressure on the other guy.

[Leedspokerguru]

Theres seems to be a split decision in this post as to what to do. Some say fold some say play it. The way I like to play ace king is very simple - be in the driving seat with it with raises and reraises. If you miss then continue your show of strength. They flat call you on the flop u still have outs, but slow way down. They reraise then ditch. If you hit then keep raising. But folding AK too much when you miss is too tight and your costing yourself money. If I only picked up pots when I hit the flop I wouldn't win very much. One thing AK isn't is a calling hand. NO CALLING WITH IT!! U miss and they fire you let it go. U have to let it go.CALLING WHEN CHASING = BADFOLDING = NEARLY AS BADRAISING/RERASING = BEING IN THE DRIVING SEAT, WHICH IS HOW YOU WANNA PLAY IT. PS DAM CAPS KEY STUCK. WON'T COME OFF. NEED TO REBOOT

[Smasharoo]

When would it be appropriate not to raise with AK?Never.

[Markmadness]

I always raise AK its not a hand you can afford to call. Its a hand where you got to be the aggressor. Unless you get reraised to the point where you feel like someone may have AA KK. If it gets checked to you bet once. if you have callers and the turn does not help you, then check it off. Passive poker does not pay. I agree with the guy who posted if your not sure raise. I read that recently in a book by doyle brunson. If you not sure and you facing a weak player raise. I have to try that out.