Fullmonty Lacks Knowledge!

[Mattnxtc 0]

Well the title says it all. Fullmonty has attempted to use philosophy to make his points. He tries to come off as being "smarter" and more "logical" in his reasoning but is he really? The problem is that he tends to ignore the basic understanding of epistemology in order to make his beliefs. For somebody who claims to know philosophy I find it hard to believe. The philosophical definition of knowledge is to have "justified true belief" Now for other people who know philosophy this might be slightly different but you will recognize it. Now this definition needs to be broken down and explained more and you will see the problems fullmonty has.True - this is a part of what is necessary. Obviously if you are going to have knowledge of something it must be true. It would make no sense to say you know something that you dont. Belief - If you know something in the propositional sense, you must at least believe it. It would make no sense for you to know something but not believe itJustification - basically this means you have sufficient evidence for the belief.So this is the the philosophical defintion of knowledge. Now lets look at fullmonty:He has a belief - Thinks that if you dont know God, He isnt going to punish themHe believes its true - this is obvious But does he have justification? The answer to this is a resounding NO. I have asked him on several occasions to provide evidence for his beliefs and his response?

No I do not have to produce any such thing.

So what can we conclude? His beliefs lack justification therefore making them pointless. If you cant provide justification as to why you believe something then it really shouldnt be respectedIm sure copernicus will agree with this as he appears to have some understanding of philosophy

[FullMontyM1 0]

He has a belief - Thinks that if you dont know God, He isnt going to punish them.

The belief that you have attributed to me I lay no claim to. I never said this anywhere.I said:1) That, there may be alternate paths to God, I do not know God's will, therefore I cannot say one way or another for certain; that I believe in my heart that God will take care of God's creation wisely, and that "knowing God" is something that could possibly come in many forms; and2) That, your belief that non-Christians are barred from Heaven is not supported by the Bible; and3) That, I do not have to prove a negative proposition; I do not have to prove that something is not necessarily true; you, on the other hand, must prove that what you claim is necessarily true, if you claim it to be both necessary and true.Since the belief you attribute to me is not a belief I have claimed or agued for, the rest of your post is irrelevant.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

The belief that you have attributed to me I lay no claim to. I never said this anywhere.I said:1) That, there may be alternate paths to God, I do not know God's will, therefore I cannot say one way or another for certain; that I believe in my heart that God will take care of God's creation wisely, and that "knowing God" is something that could possibly come in many forms; and2) That, your belief that non-Christians are barred from Heaven is not supported by the Bible; and3) That, I do not have to prove a negative proposition; I do not have to prove that something is not necessarily true; you, on the other hand, must prove that what you claim is necessarily true, if you claim it to be both necessary and true.Since the belief you attribute to me is not a belief I have claimed or agued for, the rest of your post is irrelevant.Monty

HAHAHA do yall see what I mean. He has a belief. He just laid it out. But does he give justification for it? NOT A SINGLE SHRED. What does he say?

hat, I do not have to prove a negative proposition; I do not have to prove that something is not necessarily true; you, on the other hand, must prove that what you claim is necessarily true, if you claim it to be both necessary and true.

I have proved over and over again what the bible says it takes to get to heaven. You must be righteous. To be righteous means to be free from sin. So please explain how somebody who has sinned should get a free ride into heaven? The bible offers no evidence for this. So you have to add yoru own pesonal views in order to believe what you wantYOU HAVE NO JUSTIFICATION FOR YOUR BELIEFS JUST ADMIT IT

[Canada 0]

Wow I can almost see the foam and the bulging veins from here!Nice work Monty

[Swift_Psycho 1]

Why oh why would you create a thread dedicated to bashing someone else?

[FullMontyM1 0]

If anyone is worried about it (moderators et al), it doesn't bother me at all. I am confident that such a thread simply highlights the desperation Matt is feeling right now when faced with a full-bore assault of logic and reason as applied to actual language from the Bible.The truth is a frightening thing, Matt. But you will come to terms with it, I hope.Monty

[Farnan 0]

Matt, if you're sticking to the logic of:[a] if you sign up for my team, then you are on my teamtherefore, [-a] if you don't sign up for my team then [-B] you are not on my team. YOU ARE USING A LOGICAL FALLACY. READ THIS: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/denyante.html

[Canada 0]

If anyone is worried about it (moderators et al), it doesn't bother me at all. I am confident that such a thread simply highlights the desperation Matt is feeling right now when faced with a full-bore assault of logic and reason as applied to actual language from the Bible.The truth is a frightening thing, Matt. But you will come to terms with it, I hope.Monty

Monty, you've earnt the title of my favourite poster this month (sorry no awards...) because as a non-christian I can judge you Articulate, intelligent and calm.Unfortunately I don't think we will be hearing much sense from Matt for a while as I'm sure he's smashing his keyboard as we speak (or should that be type?)

[Mattnxtc 0]

Matt, if you're sticking to the logic of:[a] if you sign up for my team, then you are on my teamtherefore, [-a] if you don't sign up for my team then [-B] you are not on my team. YOU ARE USING A LOGICAL FALLACY. READ THIS: http://www.fallacyfiles.org/denyante.html

What is the logical conclusion you can draw about somebody who does not sign up for my team?

[Canada 0]

What is the logical conclusion you can draw about somebody who does not sign up for my team?

They don't want to be associated with a psychopath?

[Mattnxtc 0]

Monty, you've earnt the title of my favourite poster this month (sorry no awards...) because as a non-christian I can judge you Articualte, intelligent and calm.Unfortunately I don't think we will be hearing much sense from Matt for a while as I'm sure he's smashing his keyboard as we speak (or should that be type?)

Actually Im not. I am getting a good laugh from it. I enjoy watchin people make fulls of themselves. What does bother me though is that people will associate fullmonty with being a christian and im sorry but from what I can tell he does not live up to the bible. Yes I can judge you fullmonty i have biblical proof for that so dont try to hide behind that. It does bother me to watch somebody try to act smart when they seem to not actually understand much. He has to add his opinion to logic and to the bible b/c neither is close to being what he wants them to believe....So again full monty. Where is your justification for yoru beliefs? You believe that it is possibly for nonbelievers to get to heaven. You believe there is another way to get to heaven. Where in the bible is it? Very simpel question

[Farnan 0]

What is the logical conclusion you can draw about somebody who does not sign up for my team?

If you are looking for something that is TRUE, you cannot say a person who doesn't sign up for your team, isn't on your team UNLESS you have another rule that generally states:the only way to be on the team is to sign up for the teamOTHERWISE, YOU ARE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS. And when you are discussing what the word of God is, and what God requires of us, you cannot run on a bunch of assumptions like this and expect everyone to agree that your view is 100% correct.

[Canada 0]

I enjoy watchin people make fulls of themselves.

and the beat goes on...

[Mattnxtc 0]

If you are looking for something that is TRUE, you cannot say a person who doesn't sign up for your team, isn't on your team UNLESS you have another rule that generally states:the only way to be on the team is to sign up for the teamOTHERWISE, YOU ARE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS. And when you are discussing what the word of God is, and what God requires of us, you cannot run on a bunch of assumptions like this and expect everyone to agree that your view is 100% correct.

I believe that was in fact stated on the initial phrasing of my analogy.

and the beat goes on...

As long as it is known that fullmonty has no justification for his beliefs I have no problem with you callin me names. Until he provides any evidence I will continue to show that what his says is the eqivalent of the easter bunny being alive. Both can be believe but both lack justification.

[Canada 0]

As long as it is known that fullmonty has no justification for his beliefs I have no problem with you callin me names.

Who's calling you names?I just found it delicious that you wrote 'I like watching people making fools of themselves', but spelt it 'fulls'Irony is so sweet

[FullMontyM1 0]

Actually Im not. I am getting a good laugh from it. I enjoy watchin people make fulls of themselves. What does bother me though is that people will associate fullmonty with being a christian and im sorry but from what I can tell he does not live up to the bible. Yes I can judge you fullmonty i have biblical proof for that so dont try to hide behind that.

I am not going to judge whether you live up to the Bible or not. I do -know- that the Bible tells me not to judge others, to worry about my own shortcomings before I worry about other's shortcomings, to not subsitute my own will for God's will, and to try to love my neighbor.I'm not going to claim that you don't know what you are talking about, or that you do not honestly believe you are in the right.I -am- claiming that you have shown -little- Biblical justification for your beliefs and that I have shown -ample- Biblical justification for mine.The Bible verses I have quoted, and the points I have made - supported by sound logic - are simple. The points I have made do NOT REQUIRE that anything be true. In fact, that is part of my argument. We CANNOT know what God's will is, so to say that we do is arrogance.Monty

[Canada 0]

If you are looking for something that is TRUE, you cannot say a person who doesn't sign up for your team, isn't on your team UNLESS you have another rule that generally states:the only way to be on the team is to sign up for the teamOTHERWISE, YOU ARE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS.

I believe that was in fact stated on the initial phrasing of my analogy.

Hate to break it to you big boy. Here is your original analogy

your reasoning on this is very bad...If I say to you, "All who sign up are on my team...what does that imply? That those who dont sign up are not on my team.

[FullMontyM1 0]

Monty, you've earnt the title of my favourite poster this month (sorry no awards...) because as a non-christian I can judge you Articulate, intelligent and calm.

Thank you for the kind words.Monty

[Mattnxtc 0]

I believe that was in fact stated on the initial phrasing of my analogy. Hate to break it to you big boy. Here is your original analogy

was that my inital posting of that phrase? I am not sure it was...I will go check. If it was then yes it is my fault as I would have assumed that it would be read a certain way and maybe its not. I will look into it

[copernicus 0]

was that my inital posting of that phrase? I am not sure it was...I will go check. If it was then yes it is my fault as I would have assumed that it would be read a certain way and maybe its not. I will look into it

Backpedal much? Cmon, we arent stupid. Your phraseology was quoted by half a dozen other posters, including me and Monty several times.Just admit you didnt know wtf you were talking about and save yourself the embarassment of pretending you dont remember what you said and admitting to not reading posts that directly refute your inanity and that you responded to.

[Mattnxtc 0]

Backpedal much? Cmon, we arent stupid. Your phraseology was quoted by half a dozen other posters, including me and Monty several times.Just admit you didnt know wtf you were talking about and save yourself the embarassment of pretending you dont remember what you said and admitting to not reading posts that directly refute your inanity and that you responded to.

Hmm i have referred back to the phrase on multiple occasions so there are many different times that i could have been quoted. But even that is beside the point. Why?My contention from the start has been that the only way anybody will get to heaven is to believe in Jesus. I then used the example of only those who sign up can be on the team. There is a direct relation there. Even if it wasnt clear you should have been able to see where I was going. If it wasnt then thats my fault and I have cleared it up now. But since my stance from the very beginning is that the only way to heaven is through Jesus. If clearing up a situation is backpedaling then everybody who isnt perfect like you must be backpedaling all the time. ITs funny for somebody who says that you never claimed to be smart you sure try to act like you are.

[copernicus 0]

Hmm i have referred back to the phrase on multiple occasions so there are many different times that i could have been quoted. But even that is beside the point. Why?everybody who isnt perfect like you must be backpedaling all the time. ITs funny for somebody who says that you never claimed to be smart you sure try to act like you are.

It is not beside the point. You have repeatedly posted responses that used the specific language you used, and you responded insistently and abusively that they were wrong.Now, when you finally realize you were wrong, you claim that maybe you used the wrong words in your OP. But it wasnt just in your OP, it was there and many responses.If you perceive perfection in me, I appreciate the compliment.If you perceive me "acting like I am smart", then that is your perception, not my claim. Though I do understand you having that perception, since relative to you a gnewt is apparently further evolved.

[Farnan 0]

ITs funny for somebody who says that you never claimed to be smart you sure try to act like you are.

It's called humility. Try it sometime.The point about "denial of the antecedent" was that the verses you quoted only show ways in which you can go to heaven. They were not stated in a way that would indicate that it is the ONLY way you can go to heaven. You were applying the logical fallacy to come to the conclusion that you must do "x" to get into heaven, which, according to the verses you have quoted, isn't technically correct. While someone can expand/extend the logic to come to your conclusions, they need to "fill in some blanks" to come to that conclusion. In a sense, read more into the bible than is actually written. In other words, it is YOUR interpretation. It isn't wrong, necessarily, and it isn't 100% correct either. It is just a VIEW. And all views should be respected--and no one person should hold such views up as being superior to others.

[FullMontyM1 0]

It's called humility. Try it sometime.The point about "denial of the antecedent" was that the verses you quoted only show ways in which you can go to heaven. They were not stated in a way that would indicate that it is the ONLY way you can go to heaven. You were applying the logical fallacy to come to the conclusion that you must do "x" to get into heaven, which, according to the verses you have quoted, isn't technically correct. While someone can expand/extend the logic to come to your conclusions, they need to "fill in some blanks" to come to that conclusion. In a sense, read more into the bible than is actually written. In other words, it is YOUR interpretation. It isn't wrong, necessarily, and it isn't 100% correct either. It is just a VIEW. And all views should be respected--and no one person should hold such views up as being superior to others.

Succinct and dead-on. GJMonty

[Petoria 0]

As I see it, Christians and logic have been fighting for hundreds of years. What makes this instance any different?Logic can't fight back, but always wins in the end