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Quiz Question #15


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Poll: Stud 8 (238 member(s) have cast votes)

What is Your Move?

  1. Call (122 votes [51.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 51.26%

  2. Raise (104 votes [43.70%])

    Percentage of vote: 43.70%

  3. Fold (12 votes [5.04%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.04%

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#1 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 05:06 AM

You are playing in a stud 8 ring game. A Q raises, a 7 calls, a 9 calls and you call with the 4 :D up and the 8 :) 5 :club: in the hole:Player 1: (x-x) Q Player 2: (x-x) 7 Player 3: (x-x) 9 Me: (8 :) 5 :D ) 4 :) On fourth street, the boards look like this:Player 1: (x-x) Q A Player 2: (x-x) 7 10 Player 3: (x-x) 9 9 Me: (8 :) 5 :D ) 4 :) 2 :) Player number three bets out, what is your play?
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#2 playingtowin

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 05:12 AM

I would say call...u want more players in this pot who all don't look they they will make any kind of low, so if we make our low we can split more. As we don't have any kind of high hand, raising is not a good idea. Even if we raised, the 99 is not gonna fold so we won't be able to win the pot outright.

#3 respec

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 05:34 AM

I have never played Stud 8 in my life so I really have no idea why I'm even answering this but my gut tells me you have to raise. I won't try to explain that since I have no good reason for thinking it. Eliminating players is usually a good thing in stud games, whatever.

#4 FullMontyM1

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 06:09 AM

You call. You want the QA calling as well, and maybe two raises in front of him scares him out if his hole cards give him a marginal hand. You are ahead of 7-10 at this point - if he is working on a low - so you don't need to scare him out. As many as 16 of the remaining 36 cards give you a 9 low or better.I am just starting to play razz and stud8, but so far, it seems pretty profitable to keep someone you -know- is behind you for a low in the hand, because a) they're behind, B) you, once you make your low, may be able to keep them from drawing out on you with a big bet when they take a bad upcard, if you feel it is necessary because you have a weak low, c) if you fail to make your low, you can still knock them off of theirs if yours shows better than theirs does. And, in this case, so far your low is showing better.Among other factors... Monty

#5 BigDMcGee

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 06:37 AM

I say raise. The guy who had the seven up, is proably going low. The ten is a total blank for him. How ever, he is drawing to a better low than you, and you want to know him out for sure. However, the AA is obviously a high hand, and he's not nessisarily going to fold because of your raise, knowing that you are obviously low. He'll be more concerned about 99. In DN's game, I'd say it's unlikely that the 99 started with a nine in the hole, since he called a raise. More likely a powerful drawing hand. pair of 9's is garbage in Stud high low. Queen wll proably be able to put dn wher he is, and have a reasonable chance to think that his hand is better than 99, so he's not going to fold. If he folds, it's really not the end of the world, 'cause a heads up pot will be easier to hog if you back door into some low two pair or trips. But mostly you raise to get the 7 10 out.
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#6 FullMontyM1

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 08:41 AM

View PostBigDMcGee, on Friday, April 14th, 2006, 5:37 AM, said:

The ten is a total blank for him. How ever, he is drawing to a better low than you, and you want to know him out for sure.
I preface this with the admission that I am a noob when it comes to stud8...He's currently got a better low than 710 does, he is drawing to more outs only needing one to make what is likely a good low, 710 is drawing to fewer outs and needs two. He might even have A-3-7-10, leaving him with fewer outs since some of them are in your hand. Yes that leaves hero with fewer outs too, but hero doesn't need as many.Isn't he an underdog to you? And don't you want underdogs along for the ride? Even if he draws out on you this particular time, won't you benefit over the long run with him drawing against you for the low?You're in good shape for the low, and might swing a scoop by 7th. You want everyone along for the ride, it seems to me.Monty

#7 respec

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 08:53 AM

Quote

And don't you want underdogs along for the ride?
In limit poker on the early streets usually no, you don't.Consider having Kings-up on 4th street in 7 card stud (a game I'm actually familiar with). What would you want a guy with a pair of Aces to do?

#8 FullMontyM1

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 09:45 AM

I think I'd want him chasing me for extra bets.Monty

#9 SportsW234

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 10:09 AM

I say raise because you might get the original raiser to call too bets cold. Even though your only four low and only have backdoor draws its worth putting in the extra bet in because besides a 7 any card completing your low will give you some kind of draw. A 3 give you an open-ended straight draw and an ace and 6 will give you a gut shot. You can even a high club and bet out and get the other players to fold. You could catch the three of clubs and bet out and get the other players to fold when you only have eight-high!Throw in the fact people often chase and call down with just high hands, I believe a raise is better than a call.

#10 kilgoretrout

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 11:35 AM

I would say just call, you have some high possibility, but are really not in good shape against the open 9's for high, and therefore don't really want to play a heads up pot. also you are the only one with a 4-low, so you are not too concerned about someone drawing to a better low than yourself. So I would call and try to hit a low straight/ flush card on 5th.

#11 spacemonkey

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 11:58 AM

Assuming the first two players have what their suppossed to have (split queens and three to a low) the real question is what we and player 1 think player 3 has. If player 3 started with split nines (usually a very bad play in multi-way stud/8 pots) then a raise would force players 1 and 2 out leaving us heads-up with someone who has at least an overpair. But if player 3 started with something like A :club: 2 :D 9 :D or 7 :D 6 :) 9 :) then we should raise since player 1 will stick around figuring he still has the best high hand while player 2 would have to fold. Then if we catch something really scary on 5th street like the 5 :) there's a good chance a bet will force both players out even though we still have the worst hand.

#12 kilgoretrout

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 12:05 PM

View PostBigDMcGee, on Friday, April 14th, 2006, 6:37 AM, said:

I say raise. The guy who had the seven up, is proably going low. The ten is a total blank for him. How ever, he is drawing to a better low than you, and you want to know him out for sure. However, the AA is obviously a high hand, and he's not nessisarily going to fold because of your raise, knowing that you are obviously low. He'll be more concerned about 99. In DN's game, I'd say it's unlikely that the 99 started with a nine in the hole, since he called a raise. More likely a powerful drawing hand. pair of 9's is garbage in Stud high low. Queen wll proably be able to put dn wher he is, and have a reasonable chance to think that his hand is better than 99, so he's not going to fold. If he folds, it's really not the end of the world, 'cause a heads up pot will be easier to hog if you back door into some low two pair or trips. But mostly you raise to get the 7 10 out.
I originally answered call before reading your post. I realize that you want the T7 out, but i did not think you had enough equity in the high half to make the raise worthwhile. now that you point out that it is unlikely for the 9 to have trips (increasing your high equity), and for the other high to fold (increasing the pot odds you are getting for your low/back door high), I am reconsidering. Al l in all this is an interesting hand, and i am no longer sure of the answer.

#13 respec

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 01:38 PM

View PostFullMontyM1, on Friday, April 14th, 2006, 9:45 AM, said:

I think I'd want him chasing me for extra bets.Monty
You'd be wrong. He'll easily have the pot odds to continue and you're only a slight favorite.

#14 FullMontyM1

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 05:20 PM

View Postrespec, on Friday, April 14th, 2006, 12:38 PM, said:

You'd be wrong. He'll easily have the pot odds to continue and you're only a slight favorite.
I still think I'll win more bets from him than he will from me over time, if you combine the times he doesn't improve with the times that he does improve and I improve as well. He'll lose more when he makes aces up and I improve to full house, etc., then I'll lose when I don't improve and he makes aces up. Maybe I am dead wrong, I am new to stud games, like I said.But that's a closer situation than what we have here I think. I am pretty sure 710 is a bigger dog to the 4-low to the eight than aces would be to kings up. Could someone with some more experience provide some numbers on this?Monty

#15 BigDMcGee

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 07:44 PM

View PostFullMontyM1, on Saturday, April 15th, 2006, 12:41 AM, said:

I preface this with the admission that I am a noob when it comes to stud8...He's currently got a better low than 710 does, he is drawing to more outs only needing one to make what is likely a good low, 710 is drawing to fewer outs and needs two. He might even have A-3-7-10, leaving him with fewer outs since some of them are in your hand. Yes that leaves hero with fewer outs too, but hero doesn't need as many.Isn't he an underdog to you? And don't you want underdogs along for the ride? Even if he draws out on you this particular time, won't you benefit over the long run with him drawing against you for the low?You're in good shape for the low, and might swing a scoop by 7th. You want everyone along for the ride, it seems to me.Monty
In stud 8, imo, if you have a chance to knock someone drawing to a BETTER low, then you do it. If that 8 was a say.. 3 or A or 6, you' could proably just call, hoping he did catch a back door low, and comes along for the ride. BUt then again, if you had a low that powerful, you'd proably raise also, since you have such a high pot equity verses the high hands ( ie you can make a high that beats them, but they have no shot at low). And infact, this is the very hand you want to represent, to knock ole 710 out. I personally don't think this is even a very close call. There are alot of sitiuation in stud games where you want to put pressure on hands to fold, giving yourself a better shot at the whole pot. while your high prospects aren't very good, they are there, where as 99 has no shot at low at all. To be the solo low free rolling at high is a very good spot to be in in stud, and you want to put yourself in that spot anyway you can.
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#16 2bthebest

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 08:49 PM

View PostBigDMcGee, on Friday, April 14th, 2006, 9:37 AM, said:

I say raise. The guy who had the seven up, is proably going low. The ten is a total blank for him. How ever, he is drawing to a better low than you, and you want to know him out for sure. However, the AA is obviously a high hand, and he's not nessisarily going to fold because of your raise, knowing that you are obviously low. He'll be more concerned about 99. In DN's game, I'd say it's unlikely that the 99 started with a nine in the hole, since he called a raise. More likely a powerful drawing hand. pair of 9's is garbage in Stud high low. Queen wll proably be able to put dn wher he is, and have a reasonable chance to think that his hand is better than 99, so he's not going to fold. If he folds, it's really not the end of the world, 'cause a heads up pot will be easier to hog if you back door into some low two pair or trips. But mostly you raise to get the 7 10 out.
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#17 Bubba83

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Posted 15 April 2006 - 11:28 PM

This is pretty tough, I'm still not sure wether to go with call, or raise. Fold is out of the question. The big question for me is whether we should raise to try and face Player 1 with two cold incase he has 3 to a better low and we could knock that out and pretty much guarantee the low. But then we are making our odds worse when we are drawing to our flush or straight by knocking out more people that could be overcalling on the next few streets. I guess i'm going to go with call. I want to see what happens on fifth before I get out some raising chips, and raise it!

#18 cu in 4years Dan

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Posted 16 April 2006 - 04:38 AM

i call here, there is really no other answer that i can see here than call.i may be wrong though

#19 No_Neck

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Posted 16 April 2006 - 12:06 PM

how many of our :club: are dead? If none I raise. we probably have the best low draw and we might have a scoop with the flush. Looks like everyone but seat 2 is the only one should have a low draw. I think it is a clear raise.

#20 BigDMcGee

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Posted 16 April 2006 - 03:31 PM

Plus, aggression now may buy a free card when the betting doubles. Your board looks very scary to high only hands, and another club, or another baby ( even if it pairs you) will look super scary. If you have some premium low hand, like your raise is going to represent, than single pair hands high only hands are in alot of trouble. So if you catch good on the next street ( or appear to catch good if you actually catch good, you'll be betting...) it can buy you a card. One problem in raising, however, is that you didn't raise on 3rd street, so they really can't put you on a super premium low hand to start with, like three baby clubs, or A 2 3 or something. So 10-7 may figure out what you're doing. but it doesn't treally matter if he does, 'cause the raise will give him a bad price to chace, and unless he started with like 567 suited or something he can't take a card off.
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