8 replies to this topic

[Zach6668]

Yeah, the title says it all. No reads except the first raiser has raised about 6 straight hands.


Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with K , A . MP posts a blind of $0.50. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, MP (poster) checks, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP folds, CO folds, SB calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 5 , T , 4 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, SB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) Q (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, SB calls.

River: (10 BB) J (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 13 BB


Comments on all streets are cool, but it mostly the turn I'm interested in. Should I be betting this?



Sub question: One or two limpers, then LAG raises from the button, I'm in the SB with KJo. Is this an easy fold?

[aim786]

I'll answer your sub question first, you should fold KJo in that spot. If you were on the button though, you could probably make a case for 3 betting.

I'm still thinking about this, I don't play at Party much where the games are passive. Getting raised on the turn really sucks, so I would'nt bet if there was a good chance I'd get raised. I probably prefer c/c the turn.

[Zach6668]

I'll answer your sub question first, you should fold KJo in that spot. If you were on the button though, you could probably make a case for 3 betting.

I'm still thinking about this, I don't play at Party much where the games are passive. Getting raised on the turn really sucks, so I would'nt bet if there was a good chance I'd get raised. I probably prefer c/c the turn.

w00t! I did fold... lol

[aim786]

w00t! I did fold... lol

Wait a sec, did'nt you cap KJo OOP at the strat table? Clearly, 3 betting is correct then...lol!

[Zach6668]

Wait a sec, did'nt you cap KJo OOP at the strat table? Clearly, 3 betting is correct then...lol!

Yeah, but that was a strat (read: lag) table against players that I could potentially have some fold equity... not that it was correct then, either...

[CobaltBlue]

Short-handed, with one or two limpers against a frequent raiser, KJo isn't that bad to call with in the SB.

An e-book that I came across called Hold 'Em Brain has this to say in the chapter on short-handed...

"The under the gun player in a 5-handed game can raise with a much wider variety of hands, so a call with KJo in the small blinds when there is a raiser and a caller, is a better play in a shorthanded game than a full game."

Granted, the situation's slightly different...but they're not that far apart.

As for the hand in the OP, what kind of calling pattern does SB have?

[AlphaOmega]

I like the turn bet.

We may still have the best hand because the heart draw increases both villains' peeling ranges.

Also, since we'd call a bet in this situation, it's better to just bet it ourselves. It would be nice to fold hands that could have more than 6 outs against us, and we don't mind being raised because we have a decent amount of outs ourselves.

I think the wildness of SB also changes the dynamic of the hand. If he was a normal player, then this turn should be checked because in that instance we would be at a slight equity deficit. As is, we have a slight equity edge, combined with fold equity versus hands that we could cause to incorrectly fold.

The KJo example is a pretty standard fold. I'd consider three-betting if the EP limpers were unlikey to call two cold back to them.

Short-handed, with one or two limpers against a frequent raiser, KJo isn't that bad to call with in the SB.

I think against a maniac it would be ok to call, but even against a frequent raiser I think KJo should be folded in that situation from the SB for a couple reasons:

-The dynamic of a couple limpers will shrink most raising ranges. KJo doesn't have that great of an equity against the better pre-flop Hold 'Em hands.

-We have a positional disadvantage.

Granted, our relative position is excellent for how we would want to proceed in the hand, but it doesn't offset the combined badness of our pre-flop equity deficit and our positional disadvantage IMO.

[Zach6668]

As for the hand in the OP, what kind of calling pattern does SB have?

I'm new to the table.

[CobaltBlue]

The KJo example is a pretty standard fold. I'd consider three-betting if the EP limpers were unlikey to call two cold back to them.
I think against a maniac it would be ok to call, but even against a frequent raiser I think KJo should be folded in that situation from the SB for a couple reasons:

-The dynamic of a couple limpers will shrink most raising ranges. KJo doesn't have that great of an equity against the better pre-flop Hold 'Em hands.

-We have a positional disadvantage.

Granted, our relative position is excellent for how we would want to proceed in the hand, but it doesn't offset the combined badness of our pre-flop equity deficit and our positional disadvantage IMO.

Believe me, I hate playing out of position and go out of my way to not just call in the SB. That said, we're putting in 1.5 SB to win 6.5-8.5 SB (depending on the number of limpers and whether the BB calls). That's 5.67-1 if we're being optimistic and 4.33-1 if we're being pessimistic. Against a LAG position raiser and holding a decent enough hand (especially short-handed), I think we're getting odds to see a flop.

My argument seems reasonable, but I'm open to constructive criticism. I'll throw some hand ranges in Stove and see what happens.

Edit:
Threw it into Stove. Gave button a range of AA-55, any broadway, A9o, A8o, A9s-A6s. Gave the two limpers ~37.5% of hands (the best non-premiums). Gave BB a random hand. We're 21.4% against that range. The equity edge isn't necessarily "large" and our position sucks, but I think the pot odds are going to justify it if we can play decently post-flop.

I'm new to the table.

Well, that makes the turn decision more difficult. The calling pattern is a critical piece of info when considering the bet.