folding a low pocket pair to a preflop raise

[Downstream 0]

This is somewhat related to my previous post: http://www.fullcontactpoker.com/poker-foru...5521&highlight=Again, .25-.50 no fold em limit poker.Lets say I am in early and/or middle position and have called with 44. I face two raises preflop. Do I call this or fold? It seems that its always right to call one bet, but is it any different for two? Any difference if its capped (hardly ever see this) hence 3 bets?Thanks for the advice, I see some great posts here and I think my game is improving.

[ChuckSty 0]

yes if it is three bet or capped before it gets around to you than you should fold. although i guess if it looked like everyone was staying in the pot like you sometimes might see i might just stick around becasue the enormous pot odds. i was playing on 2/4 table at pacific the other day and i had pocket kings on of the button and the bet had been capped before it even got to me. i was just sitting back watching wondering what on earth was going on. we ended up having 7 people in preflop for a capped bet. it was awesome; although i had to be a huge underdog against that many people. i think there ended up being two guys in with underpairs a guy with a-j and maybe a couple of a rag suited. i ended up winning with the pair. regardless if i was on the button i might of called with just about anything

[ChuckSty 0]

actually that's not really true about calling with almost anything on the button in that situation. maybe if i was already in for a bet or two thhen i would but at 7-1 odds i wouldn't with anything.

[holman3rd 0]

actually that's not really true about calling with almost anything on the button in that situation. maybe if i was already in for a bet or two thhen i would but at 7-1 odds i wouldn't with anything.

odds of flopping a set are 7.5-1 or close, right? if so, let that be your guide in most cases, unless you have really good reads on the players in the pot already.

[UglyJimStudly 0]

Again, .25-.50 no fold em limit poker.Lets say I am in early and/or middle position and have called with 44. I face two raises preflop. Do I call this or fold?

I'm not real wild about the initial call; on this type of table, if the flop is at all coordinated then chances are somebody will have a playable flush or straight draw, so even if you hit your set you end up sweating. A little pair on that kind of table is much better in late position than early/mid, since you have more control over the betting and a better shot at figuring out what everyone has (or is drawing to).That said, if you are going to play little pocket pairs from early/mid position, your decision pretty much depends on whether you expect everyone else to call the raises. You knew you needed to hit a set to win when you called the bet, same applies now, so your calling decision on the raise is the same as your initial calling decision: will enough people get into the pot to give me the odds I need? Post-flop, you'll be scared of any big card (due to the possibility of set-over-set) as well as any coordinated cards, but otherwise it'll play similarly to the no-raise case.

[holman3rd 0]

Again, .25-.50 no fold em limit poker.Lets say I am in early and/or middle position and have called with 44. I face two raises preflop. Do I call this or fold?

I'm not real wild about the initial call; on this type of table, if the flop is at all coordinated then chances are somebody will have a playable flush or straight draw, so even if you hit your set you end up sweating. A little pair on that kind of table is much better in late position than early/mid, since you have more control over the betting and a better shot at figuring out what everyone has (or is drawing to).That said, if you are going to play little pocket pairs from early/mid position, your decision pretty much depends on whether you expect everyone else to call the raises. You knew you needed to hit a set to win when you called the bet, same applies now, so your calling decision on the raise is the same as your initial calling decision: will enough people get into the pot to give me the odds I need? Post-flop, you'll be scared of any big card (due to the possibility of set-over-set) as well as any coordinated cards, but otherwise it'll play similarly to the no-raise case.

I tend play low pp more in early position when the table is loose passive. I limp in and am not too worried about getting re-raised. There are usually several players to the flop, so my pot odds are decent. If I see a raise and a re-raise preflop from these passive players, i get outta there way and muck. I will call one raise after limping, though, always in limit.

[Smasharoo 0]

A little pair on that kind of table is much better in late position than early/mid, since you have more control over the betting and a better shot at figuring out what everyone hasSo is AA, AKs, KK, 83, and every other hand you could be dealt. Later position is better for *ALL* hands.Folding 44 UTG on a loose table that shows down a lot of hands indicating a set or a FH will get paid off is just horrible.Horrible.

[sloshr 0]

Don't call the two bets unless you know it will be multiway. I understand you wasted one bet already. It was worth the limp, but now you have to dump it. Of course the flop will be AK4 and they will both have AK, but you are still right to fold to the reraise. You are getting odds to call one bet, not two.

[holman3rd 0]

A little pair on that kind of table is much better in late position than early/mid, since you have more control over the betting and a better shot at figuring out what everyone hasSo is AA, AKs, KK, 83, and every other hand you could be dealt. Later position is better for *ALL* hands.Folding 44 UTG on a loose table that shows down a lot of hands indicating a set or a FH will get paid off is just horrible.Horrible.

I don't the 2nd comment was directed at me, but I'll clarify just in case. If the table is loose aggressive, I'm not laying down to re-raises, as the raises behind me don't necessarily mean strenght. I suggesting folding to re-raises on a passive table, b/c when passive players wake up and re-raise, it is usually because they hold a group 1 hand. I say "usually"...as always, I'll go into my memory bank to get a better feel of the range of hands they are capable of getting aggressive with.

[Uppie_ 0]

It is limit poker so you have to just flat out do the math if your getting 5 to 1 it makes sense cause your only a 4.5 to 1 underdog, but that is if your going to stay the whole way, i would fold it because you are setting your self up to lose a big pot, if you have 44 a flop is Q 4 8, he could have flopped trip queens in which case your going to put in a lot of bets drawing vitually dead. in no limit it is more reasonable to call cause if you hit your set you can bust a big pair, but if not you get out cheap. in limit you might only win 3 or 4 Big bets depending on your compettion.

[sloshr 0]

I don't the 2nd comment was directed at me, but I'll clarify just in case. If the table is loose aggressive, I'm not laying down to re-raises, as the raises behind me don't necessarily mean strenght.

It doesn't matter if the raises mean strength or not, you have 44. This is not exactly a hand that will win without improvement. Even if the raiser has K9 and the reraiser QJs, you are in terrible shape here. You have to flop a set or fold or waste even more money. If you have the odds to flop a set, play on. If not, fold. Generally 2 bets to you is not odds to continue unless it will be at least 5 way action.

[Smasharoo 0]

I don't the 2nd comment was directed at me, but I'll clarify just in case. If the table is loose aggressive, I'm not laying down to re-raises, as the raises behind me don't necessarily mean strenght.I suggesting folding to re-raises on a passive table, b/c when passive players wake up and re-raise, it is usually because they hold a group 1 hand. I say "usually"...as always, I'll go into my memory bank to get a better feel of the range of hands they are capable of getting aggressive with.Nah I read it to fast, my fault.Didn't realize it was two cold.

[Smasharoo 0]

Holman, you're not from Texas, are you?

[UglyJimStudly 0]

So is AA, AKs, KK, 83, and every other hand you could be dealt. Later position is better for *ALL* hands.

Sure. But for some hands it's a lot better than others. There are far fewer flops that are going to be dangerous for pocket Aces to bet into early than for pocket fours (even when you flop a set). Pocket fours are a marginal hand, you need to work hard to get them to pay off; making it harder by playing from bad position doesn't seem like a good plan to me.

Folding 44 UTG on a loose table that shows down a lot of hands indicating a set or a FH will get paid off is just horrible.

The best reasonable case for your 4s is to get a set and hope none of the other six or seven people get a decent draw. When most of those six or seven people are acting behind you, your ability to read their hands and control the betting is far more limited. If you play your little pockets early, you're likely to put more money in when your set is beat and get less money out when it's best, which lowers an already marginal EV. And you're playing at a table that's going to hand you great huge stacks of chips when you do play a good hand under favourable conditions, so what's your rush?

[Smasharoo 0]

The best reasonable case for your 4s is to get a set and hope none of the other six or seven people get a decent draw. When most of those six or seven people are acting behind you, your ability to read their hands and control the betting is far more limited. If you play your little pockets early, you're likely to put more money in when your set is beat and get less money out when it's best, which lowers an already marginal EV. And you're playing at a table that's going to hand you great huge stacks of chips when you do play a good hand under favourable conditions, so what's your rush?You're kidding, right? Lowers it's marginal EV?Time to start keeping track of hand performance somewhere other than anecdotally.

[UglyJimStudly 0]

You're kidding, right? Lowers it's marginal EV?Time to start keeping track of hand performance somewhere other than anecdotally.

Sure. How about pokerroom.com?http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/e...vstats/expValueYou can query the performance of any starting hand you like, from any position, at a variety of limits. At low limits - where presumably people are playing more loosely - 44 is marginally -EV overall. Compare and contrast those marginal figures with strong hands to your heart's content.If you want to see a bunch of different hands all at once, these guys did it a while back:http://teamfu.freeshell.org/poker_hands/ev...v_position.htmlAgain, the difference between marginal hands and high-value hands should be obvious. There's a reason Sklansky put 44 in group 7, after all.

[Smasharoo 0]

There's a reason Sklansky put 44 in group 7, after all.There's also a reason they published SSHE because HEFAP readers where only marginaly able to beat loose games with bad players.There's a reason 22 UTG is a call in SSHE.The EV stats you're looking at are fiarly pointless, as the vast majority of value in the hand comes from playing it well post flop.If you want to scrape by wining 2BB/100 in loose games, fold it UTG, if you want to win 5BB/100, limp with it and 33 and 22 UTG.I'll go with that second one.

[holman3rd 0]

Holman, you're not from Texas, are you?

No, buy I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan...does that count?

[Smasharoo 0]

No, buy I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan...does that count?Lol, I met a kid in vegas with a simmilar screename who was from Texas, thought you might be him.

[UglyJimStudly 0]

The EV stats you're looking at are fiarly pointless, as the vast majority of value in the hand comes from playing it well post flop.

This is what I love about talking to board warriors - first you do the self-important huffing about tracking stats, then when stats are provided you suddenly decide they're not so important after all. Good for a laugh, anyway.

If you want to scrape by wining 2BB/100 in loose games, fold it UTG, if you want to win 5BB/100, limp with it and 33 and 22 UTG.I'll go with that second one.

Hey, so you've finally made a quantifiable claim! Great, I'm always looking to improve my game. Please post the EV stats that show opening UTG with 22 and 33 in loose games gives an EV of +3 BB/100. Thanks, I look forward to seeing them.

[princeof56k 0]

You need to consider something when using the stats from PokerRoom. Those stats are calculated using actual data from past hands. This includes both good and BAD players.Good players play pocket 4s accordingly by limping in and folding when they dont hit their set. Then try to maximize the value of their set when it hits.Bad players will do all sorts of things with pocket 4s (since they have a pair of course). They'll raise under the gun. Cap betting with it. Continue raising with it after they miss their set. These moves will make pocket 4s -EV by a long shot.Now consider the ratio of good to bad players, and it becomes obvious that the bad players are artifically skewing the EV number downward for pocket 4s (or anything else in that table). Frankly I'm surpised that pocket 4s are only slightly -EV. This means the good players playing the pocket 4s are really getting alot out of them to make up for all the crazy things that bad players will do with them.So while those PokerRoom stats are good to look at, they really refelct what an average (or probably below average) player can make with that hand. If you play using just fundamental strategy, you should be able to earn more than those numbers.That's just my opinion.