16 replies to this topic

[21gambit]

Im sure other people have made this post before, but I figured Id start it over to get some fresh infomation, plus info tailored specifically to me. First off, I am a hardcore SNG player, I play tons and do fairly well, but I generally have problems in certain situations. I am a fairly tight player, I sit back, wait for cards and build my stack that way. My problem is, that sometimes in these sit and gos when a large number of people (4 or 5) have made it to the higher blind levels, all with close to the same amount of chips. I am a tight player, and people tend to notice this, thus, when I get into a situation like this, there often seems to be that one guy who is constantly raising on my blind to steal it. Its frustrating, and I know a majority of the time hes got garbage,but I cant find myself willing to call with my trash hand and then make a quick stop move(call, bet the flop huge, regardless of what comes out). Id like to wait for the cards and ensure that I place, but I also dont want this guy to place just because I let him coast on my chips. What do you do? better yet, online, how can you project the table image that people better not try to rob you or youll gamble with them? I actually read harringtons book and he suggests a play "drop the hammer", where with any two big co-ordinated cards you should challenge your hyper-agressive opponent. I just did this in a 3 handed stt with Q10, only to find myself up against AJ. Harrington also suggests the rop-a-dope, just calling when you have a monster, but you dont often get monsters in these situations.Any suggestions?

[Vade]

You must play more hands, and weaker hands as the number of players decreases.Try various hands from the "trouble hands" section of SS, because these hands become strong shorthanded.Oh, and I would also move in with a mid pair 77-1010You are likely to be in very good shape against this maniac.

[holman3rd]

Vade said:

You must play more hands, and weaker hands as the number of players decreases.Try various hands from the "trouble hands" section of SS, because these hands become strong shorthanded.Oh, and I would also move in with a mid pair 77-1010You are likely to be in very good shape against this maniac.

It's a good thing when opponents actually notice your image. If you play pretty tight, I imagine you typically find yourself as one of the shorter stacks when it gets short-handed. This obviously puts you in the situation of being a bigger target for the more LAGGY players who have noticed your tightness. One thing you can do is use your tight image to steal more blinds--that's critical when you're on the short stack. The problem when facing a maniac on a big stack stealing your blind is that he will constantly raise your blind regardless of the cards he holds. All I can say is pick your spot and play back at him, but don't wait for a group 1 hand. You tried that and it didn't work out...that really doesn't mean anything.What I would also recommend is examining your play when the table is not short-handed. Although TAGGY play is generally recommended in the early stages (i agree with that), you have to be flexible and adjust to the table dynamics, which includes the types of players in a pot, stack sizes, etc. Look for opportunities to limp in late position with marginal hands (suited connectors, low pp's, and such) after several players have limped in front of you. That's just one example to mix up your play a bit.One additional note. You've probably heard the advice that you should do the opposite of how the table is playing (e.g., if they are loose, tighten up). I think another poster commented about this a month ago or something (wrto?). Anyway, if the table is loose and very PASSIVE, i DO NOT tighten up. Rather, I increase the amount of times i limp with marginal hands. I'm not saying I limp with crap, but hands that a TAGGY player normally wouldn't consider playing. Since the table is very passive, I can see flops cheaply and can usually peel off free cards on the turn, and even the flop. Since it's loose, lots of players see the flop, thereby increasing my pot odds. Since I have a marginal hand that's probably well disguised, by implied odds are very high. Again, this is just one example of how I (a TAGGY player) adjust to the table. This helps me build chips early in tournaments.

[JaysonWeber]

The correct way (from what I've read and done) although I have caught a lot of flack for my thoughts on SnGo's.The way to play SnGo's atleast MY thoughts (I'll get that out of the way) is the following.Cheap blinds regarding your stack. The BeginningThere is on average in a cheap SNGo 5+.50 to 20+24 fish on the table, who will lose quickly.At this point you want to play Tight-Passive, Don't risk your chips when you don't need to.The Middle Play - Move this to Tight Aggresive, with 5 or 6 people left, although that can be different when after 10 hands 3 people are gone...on average theres going to be 4-7 people left at 30-60 blinds...At this limit, you still have a healthy stack EVEN IF YOU HAVE FOLDED EVERY HAND.You play Tight-Aggresive here. Play your hands and play them hard, But don't be caught out of position with a questionable hand.Late Play - With Blinds at 50-100 A lot of people are going to be short-stacked.The way that KrazyKancuk, the Tournament Director at UB, who got his spot because of his amazing tournament play, says to play this is...Loose-Aggresive - This is ofcourse in moderation... betting 40% of people's stacks is a good way to get them to fold or, go all-in. At this point ussually people want to get into the money. Use this against them taking pots and building your stack.Once it gets down to 3, ussually 1 person will have a shortstack. If that person is you, go all-in on selected hands, odds are the blinds are 50-100 or 75-150 and ifyou have 10X BB you're probobly the shortstack.If you are not the shortstack, don't feel you have to be the "terminator" taking chances to knock someone out, you don't want them to double up through you.Play Tight-Aggresive again once it gets down to three.

[Smasharoo]

I am a tight player, and people tend to notice this, thus, when I get into a situation like this, there often seems to be that one guy who is constantly raising on my blind to steal it. Its frustrating, and I know a majority of the time hes got garbage,but I cant find myself willing to call with my trash hand and then make a quick stop move(call, bet the flop huge, regardless of what comes out). Id like to wait for the cards and ensure that I place, but I also dont want this guy to place just because I let him coast on my chips. What do you do? better yet, online, how can you project the table image that people better not try to rob you or youll gamble with them? I actually read harringtons book and he suggests a play "drop the hammer", where with any two big co-ordinated cards you should challenge your hyper-agressive opponent. I just did this in a 3 handed stt with Q10, only to find myself up against AJ. Harrington also suggests the rop-a-dope, just calling when you have a monster, but you dont often get monsters in these situations. One, they're not maniacs, they're smart.Two you have to play back at them at some point. Where that point is depends a lot on your risk tollerance and your perceived fold equity.In a high blind short-handed situation it's ussually right for the SB to push with any two cards if it's pushed to him and for the BB to call with a wide range of hands.Nature of the beast.Personally, I'm ussually too busy playing at the players to my left to worry about steal attempts from my right in these situations. If you're stealing the same amount of blinds you're surrenduring, you can wait for a good hand to play back with.IF you're not, that's an entirely diffrent problerm in your game.

[SabaAba]

Another thing you can try is use your image of tight player to steel other people's blinds. Usually an UTG raise from you of 3xBB will get you the blinds, and then if someone steels it on your bb, it's someone elses blind anyway. Also don't be afraid to raise with marginal hands like Q8, K9, etc. Short handed Any A, K, Q is not a bad hand.If his raise is not large, consider calling and then check to him. If you hit top pair, let him bet and reraise all in.

[Markmadness]

it really depends where you play at what the blind structure is. The key that works for me at Party Poker is to save my chips till 2 or 3 people are out. Unless i get monster hands i am doing nothing and inspecting what each player is like. I find out who is tight who is crazy , who will call me etc... so when we get down to 5 or 6 i know which players to go up against. When there is around 5 or 6 people left and the blinds are at 50 /100 and let say my stack is at 650 and the earlier rounds were not good to me, i am all with pretty much any a10 and higher if there are no raises to me. I want to steal the blinds at this point. If i am good chip position say 2000 i try to only get involved with short stacks or steal their blinds if i assume they are tight. Its not so much your cards atthis point it about getting the chips off the right person.

[ahosang]

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One, they're not maniacs, they're smart.

Just a basic truth.

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Two you have to play back at them at some point. Where that point is depends a lot on your risk tollerance and your perceived fold equity.

Now we're getting somewhere.....

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Personally, I'm ussually too busy playing at the players to my left to worry about steal attempts from my right in these situations. If you're stealing the same amount of blinds you're surrenduring, you can wait for a good hand to play back with.IF you're not, that's an entirely diffrent problerm in your game.

THIS is what you want to read over and over again and start practising(maybe in lower buy-in) until you improve your STT game.

[21gambit]

please only post if you have actual advice, originality is wanted, dont piggy back on someone elses post. As for smashes comments, they are filled with falsehoods, but there is a point to what he says. The comment, the only thing you contributed, is practicing in smaller limits, you cant do that, because its not practicing for the game in which youll be playing in. All you can do, is make enough in the lower limit games to play the higher ones a set amount of times, if you win, great, if not, go back, bust up the lower limits and come back and try new ways to play.I completely understand the need to loosen up, but in these situations I often find an all in bet made to my raise, usually if anyone has any ace, thus, the tighter play has been bred into me from this abandonment of rationality. This has not been such a problem for me until recently, when I jumped into higher limit STTs, I found many more people lagging around, trying to make the pay out and somehow managed to make 4th place 8 times yesterday.(Allin coin flips that didnt go my way, except where JJ busted my KK, (its an exception because it wasnt a coinflip)). Of course, as the buy-in increases, the play is going to get tighter, thus Im going to loosen up in the middle limits. Raise with any PP, any two big co-ordinated in late and sometimes mix it up with suited connectors. Its funny, because I used to play this style with a great deal of success but somehow reverted back to tighter play.

[ahosang]

21gambit, sorry you didn't find my post helpful. Smasharoo's post hit a chord with my experience and thinking, so I quoted it instead of rephrasing it.You seem to reject my post because of the fact it repeated Smasharoo's and that his was 'filled was falsehoods'. You really need to focus more on concepts like stack-size, tournament equity, and playing the people on the left(when you have position), rather than worry about the blind-steal from your right. You deal with that when the time's right(like you have a good hand, or there are stack/equity considerations). I really thought Smasharoo's post condensed this - maybe too much - and it's really hard to teach via a web forum, but you'll figure it out in the end.

[21gambit]

When you have position, you play people on the left? Normally I regard position being as late, thus everyone is on your right. I dont know if this is a concept, but Im going to jump into it. Are you saying that when short handed, being in early position is better because you can throw a bet out there with nothing, thus putting the pressure on the guy who flopped middle pair? Makes sense if thats what you mean by position+playing people on your left

[ahosang]

At the start of a hand, if and when you have position on the player seated to your LEFT, you have the button - that is the only time. Therefore, he normally has a SMALL BLIND. And the player to his LEFT will normally have a BIG BLIND. These are the people whose blinds you should be attacking, or 'making plays' on. This is what I meant by playing those on your left. If you can do this better than the player who is attacking your blind(YOU ARE SEATED TO HIS LEFT!), you will keep your stack alive and well so that you can choose the right opportunity to make a counter-play against his attempted steal. This counter attack can take whatever form is right(re-raise or call) at any time taking into consideration many factors, such asi) relative stack-sizesii) the cards you holdiii) his likely response to your playYou'll improve this aspect of your play by practising it. Normally you might experiment with lower buy-ins - that's why I suggested it. There is NO way to prevent good players from attempting to steal your blinds during an STT. I'm not saying don't improve your blind defense, but that will come when you get the hang of blind value/stack size/tournament equity.

[Markmadness]

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I completely understand the need to loosen up, but in these situations I often find an all in bet made to my raise, usually if anyone has any ace, thus, the tighter play has been bred into me from this abandonment of rationality.

I would not say loosen your play. I think you have to become more aggressive. If you made 4th place 8 times yesterday, i can only see this as getting blinded out. Then putting up a hopeless fight with barely any chips. When i am down to 4 people and on the bubble and if i am shortstacked. I am all in first raiser with anything over 20 or any A. If i bust out so be it but there is no way i am letting myself get blinded out. I want to win those blinds and i will do whatever i can to get them. If i go out, i am going out fighting. I have placed in 5 of 7 sit and go's in the last month on party with 2 wins 2 seconds and 1 third. My style has worked for me. If you read my previous post thats basically how i play these things. But if you are making 4th place alot that is a sign of doing something right. Just put in a better fight and you will make the money when there are 4 people left.

[21gambit]

Blinded out assumption, nice assumption. These were tight matches and the all ins were coin-flip situations. I was going to post them from my notes, but why bother. Youve played in less than 10 STTs in a month....Please, people, dont respond unless you have some real experience with the topic. If you have an idea, thats fine, but dont post as if you are a authority on the subject when you are a novice.EOT

[Awful]

One of the main reasons you cultivate that tight image is so you can switch gears 0n people and pick up the blinds. Steal as often as you're stolen from (or more, you mention it's a tight game), and occasionally snap off a steal. You can't just attack the blinds when you have a good hand; you said the game was tight and you appear tighter; why do you become a slave to your image and the nature of the game instead of exploiting it? Hell, you've read HoH, remember the part where he says you make money the easiest playing a style opposite your "normal" game? Reread that. A lot. Playing super-tight may paint a bulls-eye on your blinds, but you will also win more than that by changing gears and attacking, attacking, attacking.Don't stop and go. Go over the top immediately if you smell a steal. Thieves don't want big confrontations (another bit you should remember from HoH), and bad hands want flops to simplify decision-making; Drop the hammer. Running into AJ once is simply another way of being unlucky. See what an opponent's stealing range of hands is and push whenever he raises with a hand that on average, you beat.Also, you claim to be a good SnG player but poorly understand the prize structure and its implications for bubble play. Waiting for cards in order to place is wrong. A first and a 4th makes more money than 2 thirds. Increasing bubble volatility is fine if you also weight your ITM finishes towards the top spot; it's easy to do with everyone weak-tighting it up (especially in the SnG's you're having trouble with), and most people share your attitude of playing tight right into the money. The low money. So, steal more yourself from the blinds on your button, and play back fearlessly with big hands, and realize that the money isn't in merely cashing, but in crashing your way to 1st place. If you bust 4th, fire up the next and play to win with the knowledge that getting first next time is better than folding into third both times.Also, please don't attack those trying to help you. If you can't beat tight SnG's on the bubble, you aren't as good as you think or in position to refuse advice and mock your advisors. Your post makes it sound as if you are indeed getting blinded out (very tight, being stolen from, no mention of your steals, stack management, etc). How's that a bad assumption given the way you've pleaded for advice? Why do you blame them being tight and coinflips for your lack of success? If you understood the game, you'd know the coinflips will come around and that they're no sweat, and the tight players make bubble play easier, that it's not the tightness of the sit-n-go, it's the bubble aggression that's giving you problems. In fact, you should see that your attitude is WHY stealing helps someone put themself in a position to place high, and why you would be extremely successful attacking the blinds when you're the man with the button.Folding every non-AA/KK/QQ hand until you cash is not proper SnG strategy. You MUST get aggressive yourself. Stop acting like it's some magic winning formula, because those are the people that make SnG's beatable as much as the all-in 1st 3 rounds monkeys; those from whom you can buy 50% of the prize pool by letting them have just 20% of it. Don't think you're eating filet mignon when someone decides to throw you table scraps.

[Smasharoo]

Please, people, dont respond unless you have some real experience with the topic. If you have an idea, thats fine, but dont post as if you are a authority on the subject when you are a novice. I've played 7,000 STTs over the last three years according to my records.I used to 4 table them, getting in 30 a day in sometimes.My ROI in them was about 22%.I have better EV in limit ring games so I don't play them much anymore, but it's not like the theory has changed since I last played one.

[Markmadness]

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Blinded out assumption, nice assumption. These were tight matches and the all ins were coin-flip situations. I was going to post them from my notes, but why bother. Youve played in less than 10 STTs in a month.... Please, people, dont respond unless you have some real experience with the topic. If you have an idea, thats fine, but dont post as if you are a authority on the subject when you are a novice. EOT

I don't know why you getting defensive, i simply just put my opinion. I do consider myself a novice. However, i play mostly live now and have played at least 150 sit and go's in the last year. The way i play has been useful for me in both live and online. So i do have real experience but i guess you should wait till Daniel responds.