16 replies to this topic

[pokerplayer24]

Villain is a 18/13/4 over a few hundred hands.

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with [Jh], [As].
1 fold, Hero raises, Button calls, 1 fold, BB 3-bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) [Kd], [Ah], [5d] (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button folds.

Turn: (5.70 BB) [4c] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero....

I was just going to call down figuring WA/WB then he checked the turn to me. My thoughts here were he's either A. trapping with AA, KK or Ak or B. he's given up with a solid pp 99-QQ. In the end I went with a check. Just wondering if this is an easy bet or checking behind and betting the river if checked to has more value.

[jayboogie]

This is the easiest Turn Bet ever. There's really not all that much to think about, sure you might get trapped when he has AA or KK, it happens, but not often enough not to bet your hand when you clearly look like your best here. The check is often not an idication that he has given up, but more likely he has decided to check/call with his pair.

BTW, I'd likely raise this flop against most opponents, unless he's squeaky tight in which case I call down and bet if checked to.

[pokerplayer24]

This is the easiest Turn Bet ever. There's really not all that much to think about, sure you might get trapped when he has AA or KK, it happens, but not often enough not to bet your hand when you clearly look like your best here. The check is often not an idication that he has given up, but more likely he has decided to check/call with his pair.

So you think someone who is 18/13/4 intends to check call the turn and river with an underpair here?

If raised whats your line?

BTW, I'd likely raise this flop against most opponents, unless he's squeaky tight in which case I call down and bet if checked to.

Pretty sure my flop line was standard but I could be wrong.

If I raise and get 3-bet what should i do?

[PoppinFresh]

I like checking the turn, I doubt you're getting a calldown out of a pocket pair and he may check/fold the turn but will almost always pay off the river.

On the flop though I do like a raise though just because the pot is 3-handed instead of heads up. Button doesn't look like he's too good and he may have a weaker ace, a raise also shuts down his odds if he has Kx or a gutshot.

If I get 3-bet on the flop I'm calling and folding the turn UI or if bb just calls and checks to me I'm bet/folding the turn

Edit: Having read jayboogie's post below I want to make clear that the above is assuming that these stats are for villain at 6-max, if these are full ring stats that changes things

[jayboogie]

So you think someone who is 18/13/4 intends to check call the turn and river with an underpair here?

If raised whats your line?



Pretty sure my flop line was standard but I could be wrong.

If I raise and get 3-bet what should i do?

I don't really understand those stats posted entirely, I use PT only for tracking winrate, but that's a strange line for somebody to take with AA or KK. See another thing is these stats are probably from a full ring game most likely and not shorthanded stats. Even the worst players know to adjust their play when 5 handed.

A read would help here, is he the tricky type that would pull off a check/raise like this? My guess is no. I don't see why he wouldn't pay you off with a pair in this spot, I always get called down even when I value bet 3rd or 4th pair particularly shorthanded. I don't know about you, but I believe the majority of low limit players can't fold QQ 5 handed no matter what the board is.

As to your questions. If he check/raises the turn, it'd depend on my read whether I call down or not. I would against most opponents actually with the kind of stupid crap I see them pull all the time. I'd fold against a typically straightforward player.

If he 3-bets the flop, I'm going into calldown mode.

I like checking the turn, I doubt you're getting a calldown out of a pocket pair and he may check/fold the turn but will almost always pay off the river.

On the flop though I do like a raise though just because the pot is 3-handed instead of heads up. Button doesn't look like he's too good and he may have a weaker ace, a raise also shuts down his odds if he has Kx or a gutshot.

If I get 3-bet on the flop I'm calling and folding the turn UI or if bb just calls and checks to me I'm bet/folding the turn

I really dislike going with these lines where you allow yourself to get outplayed at times. I'm only playing these types of hands where I raise/fold or don't pay off with top pair good kicker against the most straight forward opponents.

I guess it's probably different for me because I don't play as tight as some of you and am used to having to make marginal calldowns with weaker hands. I'm 3-betting A8, A9, AT out of the BB against a raise against many opponents. I'm also 3-betting this particular flop with any of these hands against many opponents as well.

[PoppinFresh]

I really dislike going with these lines where you allow yourself to get outplayed at times. I'm only playing these types of hands where I raise/fold or don't pay off with top pair good kicker against the most straight forward opponents.

I guess it's probably different for me because I don't play as tight as some of you and am used to having to make marginal calldowns with weaker hands. I'm 3-betting A8, A9, AT out of the BB against a raise against many opponents. I'm also 3-betting this particular flop with any of these hands against many opponents as well.

I amended my above post to specify that it was only if these were his shorthanded stats, a 13% pf raiser is 3-betting a weaker ace pre-flop almost never. If you're getting to showdown even if 3-bet then calling the flop is a better line

[Canada]

Raise the flop as its 3 handed.

Check behind on the turn.

Seriously, out of the BB what is he 3 betting with that will give you value? Maybe QQ or ATs.

You are either giving a free card to 2 outs or getting trapped.

Checking here will get him to bet a smaller pair on the river more often than he will hit his 2 outer.

If you want to bet its a bet fold and that really sucks


jay, have you been drinking?

I don't really understand those stats posted entirely, I use PT only for tracking winrate,



but that's a strange line for somebody to take with AA or KK.

Given that Sklansky recommends you often c/r your monsters on the turn to get free cards OOP more frequently, its not that strange, and an 18/13 is quite often a Sklansky fan


See another thing is these stats are probably from a full ring game most likely and not shorthanded stats. Even the worst players know to adjust their play when 5 handed.

You see these sort of stats at shorthanded tables all the time, so I don't know why you would make that assumption

A read would help here,

You have one. He's 18/13/4.

You have his preflop range and know that he essentially doesn't call post flop


is he the tricky type that would pull off a check/raise like this? My guess is no. I don't see why he wouldn't pay you off with a pair in this spot, I always get called down even when I value bet 3rd or 4th pair particularly shorthanded. I don't know about you, but I believe the majority of low limit players can't fold QQ 5 handed no matter what the board is.

The majority of low limit players don't have stats like this. Don't make the mistake of lumping him in with the average when he blatantly isn't. This is why we like PT


I really dislike going with these lines where you allow yourself to get outplayed at times. I'm only playing these types of hands where I raise/fold or don't pay off with top pair good kicker against the most straight forward opponents.

Betting the turn is exactly one of those lines


I guess it's probably different for me because I don't play as tight as some of you and am used to having to make marginal calldowns with weaker hands. I'm 3-betting A8, A9, AT out of the BB against a raise against many opponents.

Why are you 3 betting MP raises with cold callers and those holdings? Don't you like money?

[screech]

I think this is a turn check.

He may have a hand like KQ he's willing to call down with (I doubt it though, given his 3-bet from the BB), so he either has you beat pretty bad and is going for a check/raise, or has a pp like QQ and may check/fold.

Note that if he would check/call down with QQ here, you have to call. Some players will check this turn with just that intention. Others will check/call the turn and check/fold the river.

Honestly, if you don't really have a read, I don't think it really matters much what you do, as long as you fold to a turn check/raise. IF you don't think you can, then you are much better just checking behind the turn to induce a call/bluff on the river and ensure you see sd for 1BB.

[Abbaddabba]

AF is bet+raise/call.

He doesnt like calling.

So why is he checking? Probably because he intends to fold, or because he intends to check/raise. Or at least it's significantly less likely that he'll call than it is for others when put in this situation.

If he'll pay you off a bet on the river unimproved with hole pairs that he intended to fold to the turn bet with, you're better off checking the turn. Protecting a hand and getting value are the same thing. He is not getting correct odds to call the turn bet. Well - instead of getting that value on the turn (equivalent of protecting), you're getting it on the river - specifically because you didnt "protect" against the 2 outter. And that's clearly better than him folding.



If he checks the river, i bet/call no matter what comes. If he bets, i probably just call.



I do raise the flop though.

[screech]

AF is bet+raise/call.

He doesnt like calling.

So why is he checking? Probably because he intends to fold, or because he intends to check/raise. Or at least it's significantly less likely that he'll call than it is for others when put in this situation.

If he'll pay you off a bet on the river unimproved with hole pairs that he intended to fold to the turn bet with, you're better off checking the turn. Protecting a hand and getting value are the same thing. He is not getting correct odds to call the turn bet. Well - instead of getting that value on the turn (equivalent of protecting), you're getting it on the river - specifically because you didnt "protect" against the 2 outter. And that's clearly better than him folding.
If he checks the river, i bet/call no matter what comes. If he bets, i probably just call.
I do raise the flop though.

I agree with everyhting in your post except the last part. The reason you shouldn't raise the flop is the same as the reasoning you gave for checking the turn.

[jayboogie]

Well I was way off with the #'s for PT. Like I said I have no idea what they mean, so I was probably way off on what I felt the opponent was like. 1 thing I do have to mention is I probably play much different than most of you as far as playing SH goes, I play way more pots than most do. When you play many pots, you have more decisions to make and decisions are no longer clear cut, because other players are making plays on you they wouldn't against other people.

When I mentioned 3-betting out of the blinds, I meant against 1 opponent, doesn't apply in this case, but that was what I meant. I probably play in more laggy games typically, so to me a raise means squat and a 3-bet doesn't mean much either. I get 3-bet habitually with 9T suited and junk worst than that.

I still feel it's a turn bet personally regardless and probably fold to a check/raise against this type of opponent. At least my impression of them, hard to imagine them pulling this play without having at least a strong Ace. I don't particularly agree with QQ or JJ neccessarily preparing to check/fold, it's not a definite that you would have connected on the AK board and it's possible that you decided to take a card off with a pair hopin to set up or with a gutter draw.

At least in my opinion, stats are just stats and over a couple hundred hands is nothing. It's plausible that your opponent has just been making the nuts over and over again when he has played his hands. It's not particularly tough to be aggressive when you keep making good hands. I'm just throwing that out there, not sure how accurate that is. PT is something I've never needed, but I find it's useful for keeping track of winrate and keeping hand histories organized.

[Canada]

I agree with everyhting in your post except the last part. The reason you shouldn't raise the flop is the same as the reasoning you gave for checking the turn.

I think the flop should be a raise due the button still being in.

Given the flop we are probably slightly ahead of the BB's range and there are a lot hands that we would like the button to fold.

If it were HU I think calling the flop would be correct

[screech]

Well I was way off with the #'s for PT. Like I said I have no idea what they mean, so I was probably way off on what I felt the opponent was like. 1 thing I do have to mention is I probably play much different than most of you as far as playing SH goes, I play way more pots than most do. When you play many pots, you have more decisions to make and decisions are no longer clear cut, because other players are making plays on you they wouldn't against other people.

When I mentioned 3-betting out of the blinds, I meant against 1 opponent, doesn't apply in this case, but that was what I meant. I probably play in more laggy games typically, so to me a raise means squat and a 3-bet doesn't mean much either. I get 3-bet habitually with 9T suited and junk worst than that.

I still feel it's a turn bet personally regardless and probably fold to a check/raise against this type of opponent. At least my impression of them, hard to imagine them pulling this play without having at least a strong Ace. I don't particularly agree with QQ or JJ neccessarily preparing to check/fold, it's not a definite that you would have connected on the AK board and it's possible that you decided to take a card off with a pair hopin to set up or with a gutter draw.

At least in my opinion, stats are just stats and over a couple hundred hands is nothing. It's plausible that your opponent has just been making the nuts over and over again when he has played his hands. It's not particularly tough to be aggressive when you keep making good hands. I'm just throwing that out there, not sure how accurate that is. PT is something I've never needed, but I find it's useful for keeping track of winrate and keeping hand histories organized.

Good reasoning. I'd like to make a few comments.

1) We can easily fold to a check/raise on this turn, since we are likely drawing dead. So the only reason for betting here would be because we think our opponent will call down with QQ/JJ type hand. If he will, we lose value by not betting. If he won't we lose value by betting.

2) His stats indicate that he will fold here. And say what you want about "real reads", using pokertracker is just as accurate at figuring out some aspects of our opponetns play. That's because even if we were playing one table and focusing on each player without PT, we would notice that this guy tends to bet and raise a lot more then he calls. PT puts an exact number on it, which is far more accurate then our brains could come up with. Yeah, he might be on a rush of hot cards, but the chances are he's not. Besides, even if he was on a rush, it would be pretty hard to figure that out over a small sample without PT.

3) Checking the turn allows us to get to showdown. This is more for peice of mind than anythign else.

Just another point on PT. While it is no substitute for getting reads on how your opponent plays, you can still use it as a quick reference while you play. This makes multi-tabling a whole lot easier. Not firing up stats during a game when you have the ability to seems pretty silly to me.

[jayboogie]

I guess occasionally I'll check up on stats and what not if I don't recognize a player, but on the site that I play on, I know just about every single player on the site, so it's not neccessary for me to do. I still play 4-6 tables, some HU and mostly SH without PT stats. When I do play on Party, I would probably need to rely on the stats a little more, since the player database is much larger even in the higher games. Even still when you get up to the higher games, firing up the stats is typically not neccessary because the field of players will get smaller as you go up higher in limits.

[PoppinFresh]

I agree with everyhting in your post except the last part. The reason you shouldn't raise the flop is the same as the reasoning you gave for checking the turn.

Screech, what do you think about the fact that button is still in? Pre-flop leads me to believe he may calldown with a weaker ace or even a king and we don't want to give him >10:1 on the flop. This is a spot where we may lose value from the bb, but I think we can be pretty confident folding the turn if we're 3-bet so we also save a bet when we're behind(more likely than not given info we have so far).

[screech]

Screech, what do you think about the fact that button is still in? Pre-flop leads me to believe he may calldown with a weaker ace or even a king and we don't want to give him >10:1 on the flop. This is a spot where we may lose value from the bb, but I think we can be pretty confident folding the turn if we're 3-bet so we also save a bet when we're behind(more likely than not given info we have so far).

I would rather just call the flop, and let him pad it with something like a gutshot/smaller pp/weak ace or king.

The reason being is twofold:

1) No sense in blasting out a button when we are likely wa/wb to BB.

2) While button may be getting the odds to draw to 2 pair/gutshot on the flop, he won't be getting the correct odds on the turn. So if he will call the turn with a weaker ace, Kx, or a gutshot, then we actually make more money then by raising him out of the flop. In fact, if he will call down to the river with these hands (assuming he pairs his gutshot), then we make more still.

[greatwhite]

Anytime you have an Ax and your oppoent 3bets preflop you should be very careful on the flop if an ace hits. Still, I would have called on the flop and bet/fold the turn. I think they will call with a worse hand enough to justify this bet.