Top Pair With 78s

[Zach6668 513]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is Button with 8 , 7 . 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB checks.Flop: (5.50 SB) 5 , 7 , 5 (5 players)BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, CO folds, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.Turn: (4.75 BB) 4 (2 players)MP1 bets, Hero calls.River: (6.75 BB) 4 (2 players)MP1 bets, Hero calls.Final Pot: 8.75 BBFold to the turn donk right?Villain is LPP. 32/2/0.8 after 188.

[bobbywithani 0]

You probably should, I need to buy a cattle prod so I actually will fold hands like this.

[doubleatrain 0]

I wasn't going to because I'm stubborn and hate donk bets, but once I got to the part that showed his aggression factor throughout a large sample size I changed my mind.

[Actuary 3]

why raise flop?

[respec 0]

In a 5 way unraised pot, against a guy that passive I would fold the flop. The pot is small and you are behind much more often than you are ahead.Also, when you are behind there is a good chance you are WAY behind (you only have 2 outs against an overpair which is just as bad as trips) while the precious few times you actually are ahead you likely have to dodge cards on the next 2 streets. Any cold callers further amplify the overcard problem. The turn is a clear fold IMO but if you are willing to invest 2 bets to see showdown then at least send them both in on the turn. I don't think this does you much good against a loose-passive since they probably aren't folding a hand that beats you, but it shouldn't cost you anything and if nothing else its more fun that way.

[Zach6668 513]

why raise flop?

What do you do?

[Actuary 3]

What do you do?

peeeeeeliiiiooo

[Zach6668 513]

peeeeeeliiiiooo

4 on the turn.Same person leads. Now what?

[Actuary 3]

4 on the turn.Same person leads. Now what?

with 6 outs, I call.Maybe this is time for a free SD raise?I'm not clear on when to use thoseWe have SD value, but do any better hands ever fold?.... we do make an extra bet when we improve though

[Flack_attack 0]

i might pop him on the turn to see where you stand. He could be trying to take the pot away from you with a hand like AKs (especially at these limits) or betting some donk straight draw. Then again, i play mostly short handed so my feel is probably off.

[Zach6668 513]

i might pop him on the turn to see where you stand. He could be trying to take the pot away from you with a hand like AKs (especially at these limits) or betting some donk straight draw. Then again, i play mostly short handed so my feel is probably off.

Don't ever say you are raising someone to see where you stand again.

[doubleatrain 0]

Don't ever say you are raising someone to see where you stand again.

lolYou really are adamant about that.

[Zach6668 513]

lolYou really are adamant about that.

Well, really. I mean, you can argue that a raise there may be a good play, but it certainly isn't for informational purposes.

[Flack_attack 0]

kindly explain

[Zach6668 513]

kindly explain

Well, raising for information all by itself is generally a spew.There are a couple legitimate reasons why we should raise. We can raise for value, when we have the best hand. We can raise to protect our hand. We can raise to clean up outs, etc.If you really think about it, what information are you getting when you "raise for information"? If you get 3-bet, you are beat, and then what? You fold. You spend 2 BB to find out you are beat. You could spend 2 BB and get to showdown to find out you are beat, and have a 0% chance of folding a winner.What happens when you raise and he just calls with a weak 5, or a stronger top pair? Then the information that you receive from this is what? That you are ahead? So you bet the river, and get called by a better hand a lot of the time, while a worse hand will fold, most of the time. So you spend 3 BB to lose on the river, essentially.Basically, it's just difficult to justify a raise on information purposes alone. I know where you are coming from though. I used to think like that, but it's just not the proper mindset. You should have a better idea about why you are raising when you do raise.Btw, there can be an argument made for raising the turn here, and that would be the free showdown raise. That is raising in position, when we have outs when we are behind, but potentially ahead. Basically, if we don't improve, we can check behind and get to showdown for the same price as calling down, or, when we do improve, we can gain another bet out of the villain. I don't like that play in this hand, because I think we are getting 3-bet too much, unless the villain is super passive, which he is here, so maybe it would be good, I'm torn on that one...Anyways, I suck at explaining stuff, so I hope this made sense.- Zach

[Actuary 3]

kindly explain

why pay extra for it?

[doubleatrain 0]

why pay extra for it?

Word.BTW Zach, your post was very well thought out, and I thought explained the reasoning very well. Don't underestimate the clarity of your explanations.

[Flack_attack 0]

Anyways, I suck at explaining stuff- Zach

on the contrary, you were quite eloquent . I see your reasoning that raising for info alone is -EV, though i do think it can be part of the "what to do" equation. This hand was a bad example. Thanks for the insight!

[Zach6668 513]

on the contrary, you were quite eloquent . I see your reasoning that raising for info alone is -EV, though i do think it can be part of the "what to do" equation. This hand was a bad example. Thanks for the insight!

I suppose you can say you're looking for information when you raise, but in the end, it's more than likely a value raise. Something like a raise/fold line, but for the most part, the reason you are raising is because of the EV implications of it, it may seem like you are raising for info, but I think that's just the wrong way of thinking about it. Instinctively, your raises are probably correct, but you are probably doing it for the wrong reason, so to speak.(Note that when I say "you", I don't mean you in particular)- Zach

[respec 0]

with 6 outs, I call.

6 outs? How do you figure? The vast majority of the times we are behind we have 3 or fewer outs.Look at how passive this guy is, calling any further bets is a losing play. Even if you did have 6 outs you're not getting odds. Turn is a clear fold against that player. The flop is a bit closer. I'm really surprised that most people are totally fine with putting in all sorts of money with that hand against a passive player.

[Zach6668 513]

6 outs? How do you figure? The vast majority of the times we are behind we have 3 or fewer outs.Look at how passive this guy is, calling any further bets is a losing play. Even if you did have 6 outs you're not getting odds. Turn is a clear fold against that player. The flop is a bit closer. I'm really surprised that most people are totally fine with putting in all sorts of money with that hand against a passive player.

We do have a gutshot and 2 7's.

[respec 0]

Hmm, I totally overlooked the gutshot. My fault on that one. I'd still put it at way less than 4 full outs, maybe 2.5-3.I still think the turn is a definite fold.

[RISEorFall 0]

Maybe this is time for a free SD raise?I'm not clear on when to use those.... we do make an extra bet when we improve though

you just answered your own question. a free showdown raise is when your hand is already showdown worthy, but still has a good chance to improve. If you're seeing showdown, you're paying 2 anyway, so you spend the same. But you have the option of betting the river (if you improve) which can gain you another extra bet (assuming you never lose when your hand improves). So you can gain 3, while only risking 2. Say you have A J on a board of K J 6 3 Here you have something like 13 outs to improve. but you still might want to see a showdown against the person betting even if you dont improve. a raise here for a free showdown would be a good idea. of course he could call the raise and donk the river anyway (but if we improve our hand, we are essetially risking 3 to win 4). or he could 3-bet (again, risking 3 to win 4 if we improve and he bets the river). or he could fold to your raise (although we do win the pot, and thats not all bad), or he could not call on the river bet (which means you won the same 2 bets anyway).we've only got about 6 outs here, i dont think this is a good spot for a free sd raise.

[Zach6668 513]

you just answered your own question. a free showdown raise is when your hand is already showdown worthy, but still has a good chance to improve. If you're seeing showdown, you're paying 2 anyway, so you spend the same. But you have the option of betting the river (if you improve) which can gain you another extra bet (assuming you never lose when your hand improves). So you can gain 3, while only risking 2. Say you have A J on a board of K J 6 3 Here you have something like 13 outs to improve. but you still might want to see a showdown against the person betting even if you dont improve. a raise here for a free showdown would be a good idea. of course he could call the raise and donk the river anyway (but if we improve our hand, we are essetially risking 3 to win 4). or he could 3-bet (again, risking 3 to win 4 if we improve and he bets the river). or he could fold to your raise (although we do win the pot, and thats not all bad), or he could not call on the river bet (which means you won the same 2 bets anyway).we've only got about 6 outs here, i dont think this is a good spot for a free sd raise.

I missed this post until now. Good explanation of the free showdown raise. That would be an ideal situation.- Zach