Calling A Raise After Bringing-in

[KingJames 11]

Ok... 7 stud-hi. 8 handed. 2-4 limits.Everyone Antes (.25) $2.I'm dealt (K J ) 2 I bring in ($1)A Completes ($2)2 Callers: T & 9 One club; 6 was folded.With $9 already in the pot... is it an automatic call with my 3 flush to at least see 4th? Also, I'd appreciate advice with regard to two situations.First, you make a 4 flush on 4th. Super System says that you will still only make the flush 47% of the time. What are some guidelines to follow when you are 4 flushed after 4th?Second, you don't make a 4 flush, but you pair either the K or the J. Also, only one club was dealt to any of the villains.Assume the A bets into you in both situations and the other two fold.All responses are appreciated. Thanks.James

[The Nuts 0]

If you hit four to a flush on fourth street, I check and call until I hit the final card in the flush.Then again, I'm not an expert stud player. Only exception is if he's giving free cards in which case you should bet and hope to take down the pot right there.

[KowboyKoop 0]

Ok... 7 stud-hi. 8 handed. 2-4 limits.Everyone Antes (.25) $2.I'm dealt (K J ) 2 I bring in ($1)A Completes ($2)2 Callers: T & 9 One club; 6 was folded.With $9 already in the pot... is it an automatic call with my 3 flush to at least see 4th? Also, I'd appreciate advice with regard to two situations.First, you make a 4 flush on 4th. Super System says that you will still only make the flush 47% of the time. What are some guidelines to follow when you are 4 flushed after 4th?Second, you don't make a 4 flush, but you pair either the K or the J. Also, only one club was dealt to any of the villains.Assume the A bets into you in both situations and the other two fold.All responses are appreciated. Thanks.James

Okay. First, yes, this is an automatic call on Third St UNLESS there are 3 or more clubs dead. If there are 2 or less, then easy call.If you hit a club on 4th street...you can safely call this down as long as your draw is reasonably live. If you caught a fourth club and only one other club was dead...you call down all the way until too many clubs become dead, until you have reason to suspect trips on fourth and fifth street (in which case your odds of winning go down due to his redraw on you)...or, of course, if you make your flush. If on 4th St. you hit a pair, you can profitably take one more card up given the favorable circumstances given above. If on 5th you improve to a four-flush as well..you can call to the river as long as you aren't up against likely trips/boat, or if you improve to two pair/trips..then you go from there. Basically...live flush draws are usually worth chasing to the river as long as you are sure you aren't up against trips or a higher live flush draw. Don't wanna chase to a Q-high club flush if it appears you are up against a completely live flush draw with an Ace-showing for a villian.

[Rocketwadster 0]

This is still considered low-limits, and in my (limited) Stud Hi experience at the low-limit tables, any ace up (with the possible exception of when there are two aces up) will raise in that spot to try to steal the antees/bring-in. The raise doesn't mean anything at these tables (IMO), so you don't automatically give him credit for a pair of aces there. This means that unless someone re-raises before the action gets back to you, you definately should be seeing 4th street when you have 3 to a flush (unless your suit has a lot of "dead" cards - 1 is fine, 2 is borderline, 3 is a fold).If you make a pair on fourth with your king or jack, you can still call one bet on 4th. If you pair your doorcard, you can raise to narrow the field (depending on where the initial bet came from). If checked to you, I think you should also check, hoping to see the 5th card for free.

[KingJames 11]

Thanks wadster and koop... you're advice is appreciated. I'll be sure to remember about the number of dead flush cards.Assume we make our flush on 6th. Against an opponent who has betting in to you, is it good to raise 6th or wait and play it off like you are still drawing?James

[No_Neck 0]

Thanks wadster and koop... you're advice is appreciated. I'll be sure to remember about the number of dead flush cards.Assume we make our flush on 6th. Against an opponent who has betting in to you, is it good to raise 6th or wait and play it off like you are still drawing?James

I usually will raise because sometimes they will call on the 6th only to bet out again on 7th and you can raise that too.

[KowboyKoop 0]

Thanks wadster and koop... you're advice is appreciated. I'll be sure to remember about the number of dead flush cards.Assume we make our flush on 6th. Against an opponent who has betting in to you, is it good to raise 6th or wait and play it off like you are still drawing?James

By 6th street, given the pot size...your opponents will usually call you down with a wide variety of hands even if you do raise on 6th street...so you might as well get as many bets in as possible.

[KingJames 11]

Ok, I agree about raising 6th against a donk... cuz they will call with one pair, two pair and especially trips. But against a better play (decent, not solid)... do you think calling 6th and represent that you are still drawing... then pop him on the river might work better than on 6th?I'm just thinking... if you call, call, hit your third flush card and raise... kind of obvious. Just thinking if you call again... they will bet again on the river... then you raise and they will call... thats three bets. Raise 6th and they fold... 1 bet. But it's already a good pot, so I don't know. Maybe not... at 2-4 online they just aren't good enough to lay anything down right... especially with another card to come. They will redraw with two pair and trips to the boat right?James

[KowboyKoop 0]

Ok, I agree about raising 6th against a donk... cuz they will call with one pair, two pair and especially trips. But against a better play (decent, not solid)... do you think calling 6th and represent that you are still drawing... then pop him on the river might work better than on 6th?I'm just thinking... if you call, call, hit your third flush card and raise... kind of obvious. Just thinking if you call again... they will bet again on the river... then you raise and they will call... thats three bets. Raise 6th and they fold... 1 bet. But it's already a good pot, so I don't know. Maybe not... at 2-4 online they just aren't good enough to lay anything down right... especially with another card to come. They will redraw with two pair and trips to the boat right?James

A lot of players will raise a lot of times when they hit a third suited card on board just to try and buy the pot....so a solid player will notice this and won't always just put you on a flush. IF you catch a player who often folds in this spot..then you can make note of that and bluff him in those spots....but I still say go ahead and raise on 6th for the most part. More often than not you'll be up against at least two pair and get paid off...if you are up against only one pair they might fold...but they still might fold on the river too if they only have one pair. I say go ahead and raise on 6th street AND be sure to throw in a bluff or two every now and then against some solid players who you think WILL notice that....that way you can create some uncertainty in them....and against donks I'd just raise and expect to get paid off a lot and expect for them to catch a boat on the river sometimes too..lol.Edit: And to answer the very last question....at low limits..you will just about ALWAYS get paid off by trips if you have a flush with only three suited cards showing. If you have four...them donks MAY be able to lay it down..but they will ALWAYS draw to the boat on 7th street if they have trips (which is correct for them to do) and will just about ALWAYS make the crying call on the end..(which is likely also correct to do most of the time if you have only three suited cards showing.)

[rog 0]

I play low-limits, but I raise on 6th almost all the time if I hit my flush. For one thing, many players suspect a bluff. Also, with one card to come, even if they believe you, they might call the raise with 2-pair or trips to fill up. A river raise has more fold equity IMO.

[cu in 4years Dan 1]

Ok... 7 stud-hi. 8 handed. 2-4 limits.Everyone Antes (.25) $2.I'm dealt (K J ) 2 I bring in ($1)A Completes ($2)2 Callers: T & 9 One club; 6 was folded.With $9 already in the pot... is it an automatic call with my 3 flush to at least see 4th? Also, I'd appreciate advice with regard to two situations.First, you make a 4 flush on 4th. Super System says that you will still only make the flush 47% of the time. What are some guidelines to follow when you are 4 flushed after 4th?Second, you don't make a 4 flush, but you pair either the K or the J. Also, only one club was dealt to any of the villains.Assume the A bets into you in both situations and the other two fold.All responses are appreciated. Thanks.James

no offence but SS is out dated. it was made to instruct more to push push push and stay aggresive. poker has changed alot since then

[KingJames 11]

Yes, SS does promote aggressiveness. I find myself far tighter than anything in SS, especially doyle's NL section. But I only quoted a percentage that you would make your flush by the river if you have a four flush after 4th. That is probably not out of date considering there are still 52 cards in a deck with 13 of each suit. Not trying to sound like a jerk, but I don't understand what you are trying to say?Should I be less aggressive with my draw? Even heads up, 47 is close enough to 50-50 that you can make calling bets a break even proposition, and multiway, this is a EV+ situation.James

[KowboyKoop 0]

Yes, SS does promote aggressiveness. I find myself far tighter than anything in SS, especially doyle's NL section. But I only quoted a percentage that you would make your flush by the river if you have a four flush after 4th. That is probably not out of date considering there are still 52 cards in a deck with 13 of each suit. Not trying to sound like a jerk, but I don't understand what you are trying to say?Should I be less aggressive with my draw? Even heads up, 47 is close enough to 50-50 that you can make calling bets a break even proposition, and multiway, this is a EV+ situation.James

Being aggressive with a GOOD flush draw in a multi-way pot is a good idea. If the pot is 4 or 5 way and you have (Ac 3c) Kc Tc and there is, say, only one dead club...you should look to bet if it is checked to you or raise it to two or even three bets...assuming that your villian's boards aren't really scary and you are pretty sure that you have the best draw. If you see two players with suited aces on their board and their suits are still pretty live..you might be a little more cautious. If you had a lot of dead clubs, or you only had something like (3c 8c) 4c 2c and there are two or three dead clubs....then you might not want to be so aggressive...as it is more likely that you will run into a higher flush. Doesn't mean you CAN'T be aggressive in this spot either, just be more aware of potential higher flush draws. Regardless...with live flush draws that you think are the best draws...you can be pretty aggressive with them in multi-way pots on 4th and 5th street...probably slow down on 6th street if you have completely blanked so far.