12 replies to this topic

[MasterLJ]

$2/$5 NL B/M

LJ (BB): $290
UTG: $130
UTG+1: $265

UTG calls,
UTG+1 makes it $15
I'm in the BB, been playing very tight the entire game. I decided to have some "fun". I have 9 10 spades. I ask him, "do you want a call?" He replies, "sure."

I call, UTG calls

Flop is Q99. I'm happy

check, check, check

Turn is a 5

I bet out $25: call, call...

River brings another 5:

Board is now Q9955

I bet out $50.

UTG raises all-in
UTG+1 raises all-in (has UTG covered)
I... ?

I think if you are to think about this hand there is a lot of reason to fold. There is only 1 other 9 in the deck. There is a 99.9% chance that one of the two guys has a 9. Let's call it a given. Now, what does the other have? A5? K5? 55? QQ? Well, there really are only two culprits, 55 or QQ, both of which have us dominated. I can rule out x5 here.

Return on investment: Given that I chop with one guy, I am playing to split one guy's chips. There is (15x3) + (25x3) + 50 = $170 in the pot. I have $90 invested. I am definitely chopping with one person, and AT BEST I'm splitting another person's chips. In the BEST case we split UTG+1's chips (265) for a profit of 132.5. I have to risk $200 additional chips (already have $90 in the pot) to win $135 in the BEST case. The next best case is that I net $65, and the worst case is that I lose an additional $200. So even if we give a 50/50 between UTG+1 having something that beats us, and him not having something that beats us, I'm risking $200 to win $135.. not good odds.


Results: UTG has J9 for 9's full of 5's
UTG+1 shows QQ for Q's full of 9's
and I of course, have 9's full of 5's as well.
I called... and felt very very stupid after I made the analysis written above

[ricker]

The problem is the queen.

You can't ever fold the higher full house if it's the highest card on board. Meaning if your board read 99755, then no way you're folding. You'll lose to quad fives once in a billion (not really, but you know what I mean) so there's no reason to fold on a board like that.


But with the information available to you, yes it's possible to fold this hand. Would you? Not unless he's John Malkovich and he's listening to the oreo crack open after he bets....

I would call this too and lose. There's an attractive amount of money in the pot, regardless of whether I'm chopping or not. I might put the guy on Queens depending on my observations of him through the session.

[MasterLJ]

The problem is the queen.

You can't ever fold the higher full house if it's the highest card on board. Meaning if your board read 99755, then no way you're folding. You'll lose to quad fives once in a billion (not really, but you know what I mean) so there's no reason to fold on a board like that.
But with the information available to you, yes it's possible to fold this hand. Would you? Not unless he's John Malkovich and he's listening to the oreo crack open after he bets....

I would call this too and lose. There's an attractive amount of money in the pot, regardless of whether I'm chopping or not. I might put the guy on Queens depending on my observations of him through the session.

The original raisor is very tight. I had picked up some tells from him in the game, but I did not notice any in this hand. He generally only raises premium hands.

Just to emphasize, I think if there ever was a position to fold a boat, this is it.

Btw... I'm curious if you still stand by "never fold the higher one-card boat" if there was another player in the mix?

Let's say we had UTG+2 also who checked the flop, called the $25 on the turn, and all-ined the river after UTG and UTG+1 went all-in.

[ricker]

The original raisor is very tight. I had picked up some tells from him in the game, but I did not notice any in this hand. He generally only raises premium hands.

Just to emphasize, I think if there ever was a position to fold a boat, this is it.

Btw... I'm curious if you still stand by "never fold the higher one-card boat" if there was another player in the mix?

Let's say we had UTG+2 also who checked the flop, called the $25 on the turn, and all-ined the river after UTG and UTG+1 went all-in.

Yeah you convinced me, I prolly could've laid down this boat. If the original raiser is very tight, checked the flop, check called the turn and pushed on the river? Yeah, I'm smellign something, and it ain't right at all.

My original read would have been, he held a premium hand preflop (I have no definition on this) if he held AQ he prolly woulda bet to get some sort of idea of where he's at.

I do stand by the idea of never folding the high boat on the board. Pot odds don't matter in this case. If you hold a nine and one opponent holds a nine and another opponent is in there and everyone's going all in, of course you call. You call all day with the high boat on the board. Like I said above, it's extrememly rare that you'll run into quads. It'll suck the one time you do, but I've only had it happen once in my poker career. It sucked, and I lost every chip, but at that point you're supposed to.

[MasterLJ]

I'm the same. I've probably seen at least 500,000 hands and have only had a boat to quads once. 3 royals, too many str flushes to counts, have flopped every kind of quads etc.

So let's discount 55 and focus on whether he has QQ or not.

The best scenario would be that UTG bluffed at it, and UTG+1 holds x9.

In any case, this is probably one of the most interesting hands I've ever played. And I played it like a jackass.

[budfox427]

I'm the same. I've probably seen at least 500,000 hands and have only had a boat to quads once. 3 royals, too many str flushes to counts, have flopped every kind of quads etc.

So let's discount 55 and focus on whether he has QQ or not.

The best scenario would be that UTG bluffed at it, and UTG+1 holds x9.

In any case, this is probably one of the most interesting hands I've ever played. And I played it like a jackass.

Q-9 is also a possibility at a $2-5 NL game. I've seen it played plenty of times by players that I would consider "tight" for that level. that hand hasn't been mentioned yet.

[MasterLJ]

Q-9 is also a possibility at a $2-5 NL game. I've seen it played plenty of times by players that I would consider "tight" for that level. that hand hasn't been mentioned yet.

Certainly a possibility from UTG. In my assessment of how he plays in general, it's not a possibility from UTG+1

[BIG_L_RIP]

seems almost a guaranteed QQ.

that whole hand reeks of low level slowplaying of monsters. Checked all around, then two flat calls on that turn? Yuck.

You said calling with 9/10 suited = having fun? is that not a hand you normally play?

[MasterLJ]

seems almost a guaranteed QQ.

that whole hand reeks of low level slowplaying of monsters. Checked all around, then two flat calls on that turn? Yuck.

You said calling with 9/10 suited = having fun? is that not a hand you normally play?

Not to a raise and that badly out of position. I'll play that in late position all day long and certainly complete in the SB. But in the BB to a 3xBB by a tight player. No thanks.

I suppose I should expand. My theories on live cash games (where 2/5 plays like 0.05/0.10) is to be in control. This means I do a LOT of limping and only raise pre-flop with top 3-5% of hands. Carry through with aggression. Even horrible players respect tight play when it's live. Online, it's not so easy. Essentially, I like to be leading the betting and putting my opponent in tough spots. Making big hands and getting them to call all their chips off with tprk (retarded kicker).

[BIG_L_RIP]

where are you from, or more accurately where do you play?

[MasterLJ]

where are you from, or more accurately where do you play?

LOL, I can't tell if that's a dig or not. Damn monotonous written word. Was that a "where do you play so I can raaaape ur chipz" dig, or am I just paranoid?

I'm in Northern California. I play at a cardhouse about 3 miles from my house.

[BIG_L_RIP]

nah, no slight intended. I was just curious.

[Abbaddabba]

When someone raises preflop, is called by only one or two people and checks behind on a flop that he's likely to scoop it by making a continuation bet at, it's probably because he doesnt want to scoop it.

If there were more than 2 callers, i wouldnt be suspicious about the checkbehind. But it's clear that he either hit absolutely nothing and is giving up, or hit such a huge piece of it that he doesnt want everyone else to fold.

And since nothing on the turn or river is at all likely to have improved his hand... and he decided to wake up on the river after a big bet and raise in front of him, i would say it's safe to assume that it's latter rather than the former.


I dont think it's really that hard to fold if the stacks are deep enough. The issue is that you're only 50 blinds deeps, and one of the guys giving action is only 25 blinds deep. Not deep enough to fold. If you're all sitting with an extra 250-300 behind you and the hand plays out the same, save for the all-in bets being MUCH larger - then i think you can safely fold.