May Be Time To Change Your Ways...

[DonkSlayer 1]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/31/...iran/index.htmlIran got smited again. What's it gonna take??And, another serious question. Radicals like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are frequently assailed in the press for mentioning what they perceive as pervasive sin in the US as a cause for bad things happening...9/11, Katrina, etc. Regardless of whether you believe that or not, is it so off-base for someone religious to believe this sort of thing can actually happen? How may a Christian who takes accounts of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. seriously NOT give some leeway to these theories?

[keith crime 8]

apparently god who used to intervene and smite people all the time stopped caring around the early 1900s the whether in germany was idea from 1933-1945 except of course for all the US bombs dropping

[DonkSlayer 1]

Really? That's an interesting factoid. I guess Germany is actually pretty nice...no fault lines, no crazy oceans, no tornadoes....if they don't have bombs or celesitial comets dropping down on their heads, I guess they're pretty kosher. PUN

[Farnan 0]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/31/...iran/index.htmlIran got smited again. What's it gonna take??And, another serious question. Radicals like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are frequently assailed in the press for mentioning what they perceive as pervasive sin in the US as a cause for bad things happening...9/11, Katrina, etc. Regardless of whether you believe that or not, is it so off-base for someone religious to believe this sort of thing can actually happen? How may a Christian who takes accounts of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. seriously NOT give some leeway to these theories?

Do you seriously think this is God's work?

[DonkSlayer 1]

I honestly don't know. As a Christian, I struggle with having to acknowledge the possibility while trying to be "reasonable", whatever that means. When the tsunami hit, all the local imams preached that it was b/c the locales hit were sinful and secular; I wonder why when it's their home base, they don't say the same.

[keith crime 8]

all those televangelists will say that until their town gets hit and then they say god is testing them like job

[crowTrobot 2]

I honestly don't know. As a Christian, I struggle with having to acknowledge the possibility while trying to be "reasonable", whatever that means.

jeez i thought you were being facetious. that would be pretty old testament of god. thought he was done with that type of stuff lol.

[Frinkenstein 0]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/03/31/...iran/index.htmlIran got smited again. What's it gonna take??And, another serious question. Radicals like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson are frequently assailed in the press for mentioning what they perceive as pervasive sin in the US as a cause for bad things happening...9/11, Katrina, etc. Regardless of whether you believe that or not, is it so off-base for someone religious to believe this sort of thing can actually happen? How may a Christian who takes accounts of Sodom and Gomorrah, etc. seriously NOT give some leeway to these theories?

Don't you think it's just because it's a seismically active zone?What about california? Or Japan? They get lots of quakes.

[Farnan 0]

I honestly don't know. As a Christian, I struggle with having to acknowledge the possibility while trying to be "reasonable", whatever that means. When the tsunami hit, all the local imams preached that it was b/c the locales hit were sinful and secular; I wonder why when it's their home base, they don't say the same.

Yeah, but then again the most, if not all, of the "sinful" areas of NOLA were spared. Why didn't he just cause all the "bad" people to have heart attacks? Why did he have to kill the good people? There is no rational basis for this type of thought process.I can't understand how people STILL believe that God is responsible for all that is happening. Is it my recent posts in this and other forums that pissed off God and then God made my friend hit a 2-outer on the river? No, it just happens.Those who said it was God's punishment were considered crazy by most. Anyone who considers this to be God's punishment shoudl similarly be considered crazy.

[brvheart 1,768]

http://www.zipperfish.com/free/yaafm12.phpThis is a little long, but it's SUPER funny... and seemed to fit this thread.

[DonkSlayer 1]

Yeah, but then again the most, if not all, of the "sinful" areas of NOLA were spared. Why didn't he just cause all the "bad" people to have heart attacks? Why did he have to kill the good people? There is no rational basis for this type of thought process.I can't understand how people STILL believe that God is responsible for all that is happening. Is it my recent posts in this and other forums that pissed off God and then God made my friend hit a 2-outer on the river? No, it just happens.Those who said it was God's punishment were considered crazy by most. Anyone who considers this to be God's punishment shoudl similarly be considered crazy.

Farnan, BELIEVE and ENTERTAIN THE POSSIBILITY are two different things. I knew your and others reaction before I posted; I was more interested in reasonable discourse.

http://www.zipperfish.com/free/yaafm12.phpThis is a little long, but it's SUPER funny... and seemed to fit this thread.

Hilarious. Is this a libertarian thing? Usually libs aren't willing to bash muslims, even when they're bashing Jesus.

[Farnan 0]

Farnan, BELIEVE and ENTERTAIN THE POSSIBILITY are two different things. I knew your and others reaction before I posted; I was more interested in reasonable discourse.

I wasn't talking about you. I understand the position you're in--you're torn between religion and reason. I believe in God--i just don't believe that he is big on micromanagment.

[Demonde 0]

I wasn't talking about you. I understand the position you're in--you're torn between religion and reason. I believe in God--i just don't believe that he is big on micromanagment.

I, as an unreligious person (don't get me started), respect dat.

[natewood3 0]

I would say that all suffering, disasters, pain, catastrophes, etc., are all mixed with mercy and judgment. John Piper said concerning the tsunamis:From pulpits to news programs, from the New York Times to the Wall Street Journal, the message of the tsunami was missed. It is a double grief when lives are lost and lessons are not learned. Every deadly calamity is a merciful call from God for the living to repent. “Weep with those who weep,” the Bible says. Yes, but let us also weep for our own rebellion against the living God. Lesson one: weep for the dead. Lesson two: weep for yourselves.Every deadly calamity is a merciful call from God for the living to repent. That was Jesus’ stunning statement to those who brought him news of calamity. The tower of Siloam had fallen, and 18 people were crushed. What about this, Jesus? they asked. He answered, “Do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:4-5).The point of every deadly calamity is this: Repent. Let our hearts be broken that God means so little to us. Grieve that he is a whipping boy to be blamed for pain, but not praised for pleasure. Lament that he makes headlines only when man mocks his power, but no headlines for ten thousand days of wrath withheld. Let us rend our hearts that we love life more than we love Jesus Christ. Let us cast ourselves on the mercy of our Maker. He offers it through the death and resurrection of his Son.This is the point of all pleasure and all pain. Pleasure says: “God is like this, only better; don’t make an idol out of me. I only point.” Pain says: “What sin deserves is like this, only worse; don’t take offense at me. I am a merciful warning.” But the topless sunbathers amid the tsunami aftermath in Phuket, Thailand did not get the message. Neither did the man who barely escaped the mighty wave with the help of a jungle gym and palm-leaf roof. He concluded, “I am left with an immense respect for the power of nature.” He missed it. The point is: reverence for the Creator, not respect for creation. [Ed. note: John Piper’s theological point remains the same, but please note that the quote was erroneously truncated by the Associated Press. Mr. Green really did see and say the truth, and was incompletely quoted by John Piper’s source. For John Piper’s apology to Patrick Green, read "A Letter from John Piper."]Writing in the New York Times, David Brooks rightly scorns the celebration of nature’s might: “When Thoreau [celebrates] savage wildness of nature, he sounds, this week, like a boy who has seen a war movie and thinks he has experienced the glory of combat.” But Brooks sees no message in the calamity: “This is a moment to feel deeply bad, for the dead and for those of us who have no explanation.” David Hart, writing in the Wall Street Journal, goes beyond Brooks and pronounces: “No Christian is licensed to utter odious banalities about God’s inscrutable counsels or blasphemous suggestions that all this mysteriously serves God’s good ends.” These responses are foreseen in Scripture: “I killed your young men with the sword . . . yet you did not return to me, declares the Lord” (Amos 4:10). “They cursedthe name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory” (Revelation 16:9).Contrary to Hart’s pronouncement, the Christian Scriptures do indeed license us to speak of God’s “inscrutable counsels” and how he works in all things for mysterious good ends. To call this banal and blasphemous is like a bird calling the wind under its wing wicked.Jesus said that the minutest event in nature is under the control of God. “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father” (Matthew 10:29). He said this to give hope to those who would be killed for his name. He himself stood on the sea and stopped the waves with a single word (Mark 4:39). Even if Nature or Satan unleashed the deadly tidal wave, one word from Jesus would have stopped it. He did not speak it. This means there is design in this suffering. And all his designs are wise and just and good. One of his designs is my repentance. Therefore I will not put God on trial. I am on trial. Only because of Christ will the waves that one day carry me away bring me safely to his side. Come. Repentance is a good place to be.http://www.desiringgod.org/library/fresh_w...005/010505.html

[DonkSlayer 1]

I think you need a PWNED or HIYOO after this one.

[DerekTah 0]

How do we repent for something that cannot be repaided?I mean there is no way to repent for Jesus scarcifice. If I'm missed the point and its the fact that we are away from god, well unfortuently living is being away from god. To live life is to sin. How do I repent from that? I don't understand the point being made I guess.

[crowTrobot 2]

I would say that all suffering, disasters, pain, catastrophes, etc., are all mixed with mercy and judgment. John Piper said concerning the tsunamis:From pulpits to news programs, from the New York Times to the Wall Street Journal, the message of the tsunami was missed. It is a double grief when lives are lost and lessons are not learned. Every deadly calamity is a merciful call from God for the living to repent. “Weep with those who weep,” the Bible says. Yes, but let us also weep for our own rebellion against the living God. Lesson one: weep for the dead. Lesson two: weep for yourselves.Every deadly calamity is a merciful call from God for the living to repent. That was Jesus’ stunning statement to those who brought him news of calamity. The tower of Siloam had fallen, and 18 people were crushed. What about this, Jesus? they asked. He answered, “Do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish” (Luke 13:4-5).The point of every deadly calamity is this: Repent. Let our hearts be broken that God means so little to us. Grieve that he is a whipping boy to be blamed for pain, but not praised for pleasure. Lament that he makes headlines only when man mocks his power, but no headlines for ten thousand days of wrath withheld. Let us rend our hearts that we love life more than we love Jesus Christ. Let us cast ourselves on the mercy of our Maker. He offers it through the death and resurrection of his Son.This is the point of all pleasure and all pain. Pleasure says: “God is like this, only better; don’t make an idol out of me. I only point.” Pain says: “What sin deserves is like this, only worse; don’t take offense at me. I am a merciful warning.” But the topless sunbathers amid the tsunami aftermath in Phuket, Thailand did not get the message. Neither did the man who barely escaped the mighty wave with the help of a jungle gym and palm-leaf roof. He concluded, “I am left with an immense respect for the power of nature.” He missed it. The point is: reverence for the Creator, not respect for creation. [Ed. note: John Piper’s theological point remains the same, but please note that the quote was erroneously truncated by the Associated Press. Mr. Green really did see and say the truth, and was incompletely quoted by John Piper’s source. For John Piper’s apology to Patrick Green, read "A Letter from John Piper."]Writing in the New York Times, David Brooks rightly scorns the celebration of nature’s might: “When Thoreau [celebrates] savage wildness of nature, he sounds, this week, like a boy who has seen a war movie and thinks he has experienced the glory of combat.” But Brooks sees no message in the calamity: “This is a moment to feel deeply bad, for the dead and for those of us who have no explanation.” David Hart, writing in the Wall Street Journal, goes beyond Brooks and pronounces: “No Christian is licensed to utter odious banalities about God’s inscrutable counsels or blasphemous suggestions that all this mysteriously serves God’s good ends.” These responses are foreseen in Scripture: “I killed your young men with the sword . . . yet you did not return to me, declares the Lord” (Amos 4:10). “They cursedthe name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory” (Revelation 16:9).Contrary to Hart’s pronouncement, the Christian Scriptures do indeed license us to speak of God’s “inscrutable counsels” and how he works in all things for mysterious good ends. To call this banal and blasphemous is like a bird calling the wind under its wing wicked.Jesus said that the minutest event in nature is under the control of God. “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father” (Matthew 10:29). He said this to give hope to those who would be killed for his name. He himself stood on the sea and stopped the waves with a single word (Mark 4:39). Even if Nature or Satan unleashed the deadly tidal wave, one word from Jesus would have stopped it. He did not speak it. This means there is design in this suffering. And all his designs are wise and just and good. One of his designs is my repentance. Therefore I will not put God on trial. I am on trial. Only because of Christ will the waves that one day carry me away bring me safely to his side. Come. Repentance is a good place to be.http://www.desiringgod.org/library/fresh_w...005/010505.html

that's a rather anti-intellectual post. invoking god's wrath to explain a tsunami is a huge step backwards in the progress of human society. informed people know that there is no evidence god is intervening at all in what happens on earth - in particular this is obvious with large-scale catastrophies, which happen for physically explainable reasons and as we learn more are becoming quite predictable on a long-term basis. anyway i wouldn't want to spend eternity with a god who drowns children to make a point. i'd be happier in hell.

[Loismustdie 0]

Informed people. I laughed out loud at that one. As far as a step back? How? We are not progressing, not by a long shot.

[weishan14 0]

How do we repent for something that cannot be repaided?I mean there is no way to repent for Jesus scarcifice. If I'm missed the point and its the fact that we are away from god, well unfortuently living is being away from god. To live life is to sin. How do I repent from that? I don't understand the point being made I guess.

To repent doesn't mean to repay. There is no way that we can repay what Jesus did. God says that Jesus already paid for our sin. It is just by accepting the payment in our behalf and turning away from sin (turning toward God) that we can be redeemed.It is like someone paying your taxes for you. You can say: "No way, I'm paying those myself". So even though the payment was already made, you did not benefit from it. God says that the wages for sin is death. We can accept the payment Jesus made -- His death on the cross for us -- or we can say that we will try to earn our own way to God's forgiveness. The payment has already been made - sin is forgiven. Will you accept it or reject it. The question comes down to this. This is explained very clearly in the Gospel of John. That is the best place to start reading if you are interested in seeing God's plan for redemption.

[LongLiveYorke 38]

Informed people. I laughed out loud at that one. As far as a step back? How? We are not progressing, not by a long shot.

This of course depends on one's opinion. Progress can only be measured in terms of what one is progressing toward, meaning in order for there to be progress one must be making headway toward some goal. Whether there is an overall goal of humanity and if so what is the nature of that goal is a topic that has been discussed by many, including some great philosophers (see Hegel, Nietzsche, and many others).I'm not sure what you're opinion of the goal of humanity is? I guess it would be for all people to be Christian and live Christian lives, right? So, in your opinion, it's unclear whether or not we are making progress, and it really depends on what you consider a good Christian to be, etc.Considering my opinion of the overall "goal" of humanity (about which I will not get into specifics now), I would say that we are making progress as a species, though we still have a ways to go. I guess I'm being pretty vague.

[crowTrobot 2]

Informed people. I laughed out loud at that one.

so you think a tsunami is god's vengence on the ungodly? i suppose you also think like falwell does that aids is god's curse on sinful fags.

As far as a step back? How?

back to default invocation of god to explain what the uninformed don't understand - global catastrophy is the result of an angry god. how cavemanesque.

we are not progressing, not by a long shot.

we are but not as fast as we should be because fundamentalist nonsense is holding us back.

[timwakefield 69]

how cavemanesque.

I don't believe that cavemen had any formal religions, or worshipped gods.::tongue-in-cheek face::

[zzz 0]

i wouldn't want to spend eternity with a god who drowns children to make a point. i'd be happier in hell.

Well said. If the God of the Bible is the real God then I will gladly choose hell.Have a nice day!

[Loismustdie 0]

so you think a tsunami is god's vengence on the ungodly? i suppose you also think like falwell does that aids is god's curse on sinful fags.back to default invocation of god to explain what the uninformed don't understand - global catastrophy is the result of an angry god. how cavemanesque.we are but not as fast as we should be because fundamentalist nonsense is holding us back.

I don't know if it's Gods punishment or not. I won't completley dismiss the thought, though. As far as Aids goes- Aids is not only contracted by homosexuals. I think that a little sexually transmitted disease that largely punishes out of control sexual practices is possibly from God and definitely needed. I wasn't aware that a global catastrophe had taken place. By my estimation, what happens to certain societies at certain times is really just natural selection, the earth purging herself. Thats just life. I accept that. I think that on some level people need to always attribute it to God because they have to constantly affirmate that he indeed is in control, and can't grasp anything else. He is in control, but does not alwasy excercise said control. Why? Ask him.

[timwakefield 69]

As far as Aids goes- Aids is not only contracted by homosexuals. I think that a little sexually transmitted disease that largely punishes out of control sexual practices is possibly from God and definitely needed.

IN WHAT WAY IS IT LITTLE??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????IN WHAT WAY IS IT NEEDED????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????DO YOU HAVE ANY FUCKING CLUE WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING IN AFRICA?

I wasn't aware that a global catastrophe had taken place.

AIDS is a global catastrophe, open your fucking eyes.