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Realistic Bb/100 8 Tabling 2/4 On Pp?


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#21 mrdannyg

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 07:47 AM

View PostTheCinciKid, on Saturday, April 1st, 2006, 6:19 PM, said:

Trust me, working for the man blows balls.
i've been thinking about TP/MT at Absolute for a few months. seems like constant bonus + 32% rakeback (not deducting MGR) could work out to a pretty good hourly rate.i'll probably start a thread soon, but if you guys have any ideas to shoot down this idea, i'd like to hear them.
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#22 doubleatrain

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 01:06 PM

View Postmrdannyg, on Sunday, April 2nd, 2006, 10:47 AM, said:

i've been thinking about TP/MT at Absolute for a few months. seems like constant bonus + 32% rakeback (not deducting MGR) could work out to a pretty good hourly rate.i'll probably start a thread soon, but if you guys have any ideas to shoot down this idea, i'd like to hear them.
I've thought about starting that up, but rumor has it that everyone there is just bonus whoring so the tables are horribly tight. Though I have heard that the shorthanded tables aren't terribly tough.

#23 Abbaddabba

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 01:35 PM

The rakeback seems to add up to roughly .5BB/100 at 3/6. The bonus clears at $5/hour/table, which when playing 75 hands an hour at full ring, is roughly 1BB/100 at 3/6.That's nearly $7.50/hour/table at 3/6 for bonus+rakeback. I cant imagine their games being THAT much tougher than party. Does anyone have any large hand samples at absolute to compare to large samples at party? I'd be interested to see how much one's winrate drops off.I have a question though: where do you get 32% rakeback? All the ones' ive seen are 28% tops.

#24 mrdannyg

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 03:50 PM

View PostAbbaddabba, on Sunday, April 2nd, 2006, 5:35 PM, said:

The rakeback seems to add up to roughly .5BB/100 at 3/6. The bonus clears at $5/hour/table, which when playing 75 hands an hour at full ring, is roughly 1BB/100 at 3/6.That's nearly $7.50/hour/table at 3/6 for bonus+rakeback. I cant imagine their games being THAT much tougher than party. Does anyone have any large hand samples at absolute to compare to large samples at party? I'd be interested to see how much one's winrate drops off.I have a question though: where do you get 32% rakeback? All the ones' ive seen are 28% tops.
it seems like it is quite a bit tighter than party. maybe not that much tougher, but very tight play which means low winrates for multi-tablers. i've been looking at 2/4, but the bonus+rakeback totals are not much different. even winning only 1bb/100, we're getting conservatively:0.4bb/100 RB, 1bb/100 bonus, 1bb/100 winning, and around 75 hands/hour. i don't remember if you can only play 3 tables max, but lets pretend its 4. even if not, you might be able to get the max number raised, or just play bonuses at another site to make it close.so we're getting effectively 7.2bb/hour 4-tabling. dunno about you guys, but i ain't making $30/hour anytime soon.also, since so much of the profit is bonus and rakeback, variance is far lower than it would otherwise be, even at our low winrate.i think i saw 32% rakeback offered at PSO.http://www.pokersour...e.com/rakeback/same with ultimate, titan and aztec. it only pays monthly, but i don't think deducts MGR.
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#25 Abbaddabba

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 04:29 PM

Actually, it's 6 tables max at absolute.And because the tables are 9 handed, you probably see slightly more than 75/hour. But we'll just assume it's 75 for simplicity, since 4 tabling works out to a clean 300 hands an hour.And i think that your estimates are overly conservative. Bonuswhores estimates that bonus clears at roughly 5.50/hour per table at 2/4. Assuming they overestimate it by a bit, we'll peg it in at $20/hour (which isnt unreasonable because the games are 9 handed and the players tighter than usual).RB is .4BB/100 (by my figures, slightly higher - but possibly because ive been running well and rake is a function of hands won). $5/hour. And then 1BB/100 is $12/hour at 2/4 with 300 hands an hour. That adds up to $37/hour at 2/4 with a measly winrate of 1BB/100. A winrate of 2BB/100 is roughly $50 an hour! At 2/4!!

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lso, since so much of the profit is bonus and rakeback, variance is far lower than it would otherwise be, even at our low winrate.
Yes. And if you play it like you would a job for 6 even as little as 30 hours a week, you're getting in roughly 10k hands. After 2 weeks, you would have to be running worse than -1.4BB/100 over 20k hands to be down money.I dont care how aggressive the games are, no amount of variance should be responsible for that at low stakes full ring.

#26 doubleatrain

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 06:20 PM

If you guys give this a shot, be sure to post back about your results. I'm interested in knowing how this turns out. Then again, I might just go ahead with it either way.

#27 Abbaddabba

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 06:44 PM

Im signing up through PSO right now, and i will start treating it like a "job" so to speak, once in finish my final essay (due april 22nd).I might start a blog-esque thing to keep track of my results. Ive been playing sporadically since september with pretty reasonable results, but for the vast majority of it i was neither clearing bonus nor getting rakeback, which kind of sucks. Im going to cap off 10k 3/6 hands on party before i start doing this thing on absolute, and it's going well so far. 3.2BB/100 after my first 6k hands, and 2.5BB/100 over my last 30k hands from stakes between 1/2 and 3/6. I'd be extremely happy if i reached a sustainable level at 2BB/100, to be honest. If i can keep that up at absolute, I cant imagine bothering with a real job. I'll be reaching rates as high as $70/hour 4 tabling the 3/6 there. (It's tough for my parents to whine about a 'real job' when im pulling an income comparable to my dad's). :icon_dance:Also note: short handed tables at 2/4 and above clear at 7.50/hour/table, and frequent player points are accumulated at a rate roughly equivalent to 1 dollar/hour/table at 3/6 and above (half of that at 2/4 and below).

#28 Wingmaster05

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 07:13 PM

View PostRasty, on Friday, March 31st, 2006, 10:42 PM, said:

How the hell do you play more than three or four tables while writing email, making a blog post, reading about Whitney Houston's crack habit and the Blue Jays' offseason pitching acquisitions, paying the cable bill, skimming the FCP general forum, writing copy for work and giving bad advice in the LHE forum at the same time?Can you say 'ADD'?
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#29 mrdannyg

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 09:27 PM

well, i'm hoping to follow in Abba's footsteps in May.I've been thinking about that Absolute thing alot, because it seems to good to be true.In looking at my rake figures on Empire and Crypto (tight sites), rakeback would contibute between .37bb/100 and .5bb/100 at 2/4.that bonus rate seems a bit high - my Empire bonus was clearing around 33 raked hands per table hour. the key at Absolute though is they rake every $0.25, so that'll help both bonus clearing and rakeback.as for the AP points, they're more or less worthless since they just have clothes, a few magazine subscriptions, and small buy-in tournaments. right now they're running huge buy-in WSOP satellites though. there's one now with a 20000 point buy-in that's going to have a huge overlay when it runs in 3 days probably. if they keep running those satellites, the points are really helping. if not though, we can just buy out their collection of Mark Seif bobbleheads.Big problem though - right now there are two full 2/4 tables running. a couple near-full 6-max, and 3 7-8 handed 3/6 tables. but unless its much fuller during the day, that's a big problem.good thing is the players/flop% is right now 36%-56% at the tables, at least 7-handed so maybe the game quality isn't too bad.bonuswh*res lists their game quality as C- to D, with 100% availability at everything except 2/4 full-ring (72%).so 6-tables is definitely optimistic, but we can probably find 4 decent tables most of the time. and we can always 3-table it, with 1 table of another sites bonus going.i know Abba is playing on a laptop right now, but i'd try to work up to 6 tables if i was going to do this seriously.last thought - Abba, if you're going to do some sort of blog, maybe you can put together a graph that separates winnings, rakeback and bonus. I remember way back wrto had his chart that separated winnings and rakeback, and it was very telling.i think at 2 tables of 2/4 and 2 of 3/6, a conservative rate would be:1bb/100 win rate @ 75 hands/table/hour = $15/hour..5bb/100 rakeback (due to raking every $0.25) = $6/hour$4.50/table/hour bonus (v. conservative - i think BW is high) = $18/hour.whereas a more realistic rate might be:1.5bb/100 (i suck) = $24/hour.5bb/100 = $6 hour$5.5bb/hour = $22/hour.even the conservative estimate is a pretty decent rate. and while i have no long-term plans to "go pro," you can see how 6 or 8 tabling 3/6 could make a yearly wage comparable to a lot of professions. i doubt Absolute continues this indefinitely, but its definitely a good opportunity.and we can't discount that the winnings are in $USD, and taxation levels...well we can be creative.Danielp.s. my parents basically have banned me from playing poker, but i've still played the last year or two. if anyone can think of some way i could possibly justify this to them, i'd appreciate it. preferably without losing their funding for grad school in a few years.
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#30 Abbaddabba

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 09:47 PM

There probably isnt a way to convince them if they've already made their minds up. Play responsibly and exclusively with money that you've won from poker and i doubt it'll become an issue. The fact that i never really deposited money online probably helps my case. If you never risk your own (their?) money and you maintain your grades, they have little to complain about. It's your 'recreation' of choice. Phrase it like that and they'll probably find it less objectionable. My parents have never had a problem with my choices (thankfully), even if they are pissy about the prospect of me playing cards for a living. I dont particularly WANT to be a "professional card player". It sounds trashy. And i have a feeling that's what they find objectionable. They want me to be a lawyer, who wears a suit, does all sorts of important **** and is far more successful and respectable than their friends/siblings children.

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and we can't discount that the winnings are in $USD, and taxation levels...well we can be creative.
Whenever im talking about making money with friends, i always tack on the suffix of "US, tax free". <3

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last thought - Abba, if you're going to do some sort of blog, maybe you can put together a graph that separates winnings, rakeback and bonus. I remember way back wrto had his chart that separated winnings and rakeback, and it was very telling.
Ill sort out the details when im done school.I have a friend who is basically doing this with me, and he's just made it to 2/4. It may be a joint blog type thing, and we could probably get a couple of people here joining in (if you want to, let me know).Im currently "farming" a few other friends, trying to get them up to where i am. One of them just bought SSHE and is learning to play from scratch at the .05/.10 tables, and another plays absurdly high stakes whom im trying to convince to play lower (to no avail).

#31 Zach6668

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 10:53 PM

View Postmrdannyg, on Monday, April 3rd, 2006, 1:27 AM, said:

p.s. my parents basically have banned me from playing poker, but i've still played the last year or two. if anyone can think of some way i could possibly justify this to them, i'd appreciate it. preferably without losing their funding for grad school in a few years.
Good luck.My mom is cancelling my internet after my exams!Good thing I can pick up my neighbours wireless... hahaha...On a related note. Parents don't understand anything. I think the only way to do it is to show them you are cashing out X amount every month or whatever. They won't believe your stats or number or anything.- Zach
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#32 Abbaddabba

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Posted 02 April 2006 - 11:20 PM

Weird.My parents believe me about the money, i think.They just dont care. I dont think it would matter if i cashed $100,000 this year; they'd still tell me to quit and focus on law school.And speaking of $100,000, i created an excel spreadsheet that calculates hourly rates given different inputs.The stakes, a winrate estimate, rakeback %age, number of tables, number of hands per table hour, and bonus clearance rate... and then it spits out your hourly rate for what you win at the tables, via rakeback, via bonus and then the sum of them all at the bottom. Im going to play around with it a bit, add a few features and get it online. It's fun plugging in numbers and seeing how it affects everything, and how online play compares to live. It turns out someone 4 tabling 2/4 for 2BB/100 with rakeback and bonus at absolute makes about as much as someone beating a 30/60 live game for 3BB/100.

#33 CobaltBlue

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 12:13 AM

Parents and poker...My mom had a little worry about the stigma attached to 'professional poker player', but the results seem to have relieved her somewhat.As for my dad, he just caught the poker bug. It's been pretty fun to have him tell me excitedly about his sessions.

#34 aim786

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 12:40 PM

View Postmrdannyg, on Sunday, April 2nd, 2006, 10:27 PM, said:

p.s. my parents basically have banned me from playing poker, but i've still played the last year or two. if anyone can think of some way i could possibly justify this to them, i'd appreciate it. preferably without losing their funding for grad school in a few years.
Wow, this sounds quite interesting! I might want to give this a go in the summer.As for parents, mine were (are) fairly strict with poker. At first, they were very much against it, however they've grown indifferent to it since I am basically freerolling with bonus/won money. Also, I bought my bro an ipod, so that made them happy. They also want my GPA to stay where it's at, so as long as my grades don't fall, I think they'll be ok with it.Also, you may want to TP/MM, but telling your parents that does you no good (lol unless you really are making millions!). I for one don't think I'd ever go pro, although I'd play poker for secondary income.My advice to you would be to suck up to your parents a bit, get them something nice with a small portion of your bankroll. Explain to them that you play poker as something to kill free time, and you do make money at it. You don't have any intention to go pro (even if you actually do, afterall they won't believe your making alot until they see it).Hey, it worked for me! Anyways, I think the key is to keep your parents happy. Good luck.

#35 Egarim

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Posted 03 April 2006 - 09:12 PM

This very much depends on your skill level of course :club:. But honestly, I think if you are beating the games and can 8 table with no problem then you can get atleast 4bbs/100. I think 8+ is attainable too. However, considering the fact that you're playing 2/4, I think that 8 tabling is a really bad idea. If you're still in the low limits you should concentrate on beating the game and learning first, and this is very hard to do 8 tabling. The only time you should be multi-tabling really is when you are beating the game consistently and want to improve your hourly rate and build your bankroll quicker so you can move up to the next limits. In any case, good luck.

#36 econ_tim

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 05:43 AM

View PostEgarim, on Tuesday, April 4th, 2006, 1:12 AM, said:

But honestly, I think if you are beating the games and can 8 table with no problem then you can get atleast 4bbs/100.
not at any meaningful stakes.
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#37 Zach6668

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 05:48 AM

View Postecon_tim, on Tuesday, April 4th, 2006, 9:43 AM, said:

not at any meaningful stakes.
or over a meaningful sample of hands.
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#38 Egarim

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 10:41 AM

View Postecon_tim, on Tuesday, April 4th, 2006, 7:43 AM, said:

not at any meaningful stakes.
So are you saying 2/4 is not a meaningful limit or that it is and you can't possibly make 4bb's/100?Because making 4bb's/100 is very doable over an extended period of time.

#39 Zach6668

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 10:42 AM

View PostEgarim, on Tuesday, April 4th, 2006, 2:41 PM, said:

So are you saying 2/4 is not a meaningful limit or that it is and you can't possibly make 4bb's/100?Because making 4bb's/100 is very doable over an extended period of time.
Not over enough hands for it to be statistically meaningful. At least not for 99.9% of players.
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#40 Abbaddabba

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Posted 04 April 2006 - 11:42 AM

Quote

So are you saying 2/4 is not a meaningful limit or that it is and you can't possibly make 4bb's/100?Because making 4bb's/100 is very doable over an extended period of time.
If by extended you mean 'extending until you start to run like ****', then yes.Anything is possible.If you sit around waiting for the best tables possible at the best possible times, 4 may not be unreasonable. If you're 6 tabling, that isnt really possible.




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