18 replies to this topic

[Downstream]

Advice please. This is no fold 'em Imagine you are playing a hand that is not strong, considering position and all. Please don't debate me on what a strong hand is, you know what I mean. These would be things like: QJ, KJ, A9s, K9s, Q10. Just say you decide to call a marginal hand preflop in early position and you are raised. How many bets do you call? I will call 1 bet but usually no more. Thats it. What advice do you have about calling in these situations? Also, are you more likely to call 3 or 4 bets it if there are 4 callers or so when you have something like a low pocket pair that needs more people in the pot?Thanks for your help.

[wrto4556]

It's incorrect to fold for one bet after you limp in with a marginal hand.But folding when it's two bets back to you is often wrong. Unless, say you have J T , which in it's self is a marginal hand, and you limp from MP3(even though you should raise) after 4 other limpers. If the CO raise and the BB re-raises and everyone else calls 2 bets cold...you should, too. You have enough pot odds and implied odds to chase the straight or flush, or even trips. It really matters how many are in with you. If it's short handed-fold for two bets. If it's a HUGE pot-by all means, call.

[Emptyeye]

Correct me if I'm wrong (Remember, I have a hard time grasping these things), but if you call one bet, you're generally getting the pot odds to call a raise as well (Presuming everyone else who called one bet also calls the raise).Now, if it's raised and re-raised in the process between you calling and action being back on you, then I'd probably fold it.One of my personal quirks is that I generally like seeing at least a flop with a small pocket pair, mainly because it's jackpot time when I hit my set. With four other people calling four bets each preflop, I'm actually correct (Getting greater than ~20:1 odds) to call one more bet and see the turn card--again, it's payday if I hit.

[wrto4556]

The thing is, if you have Q9s, you generally want 4-1 on your odds preflop.So, UTG limps, UTG+1 limps, UTG+2 limps, MP1 limps, YOU limp from MP2, MP3 raises, CO folds, button folds, SB calls, BB raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls....you?you are getting about 8.5-1 on your call. Now, MP3 may re-raise, and your effective odds kind of kick you in the nuts, but your implied odds are through the roof.

[Downstream]

I dont have a good grasp on pot odds before the flop, as you can probably tell. I do know pot odds post flop pretty well.Can anyone give me an idea of the concept pre flop?

[KillerPanda]

Try reading Small Stakes Hold'em by Sklansky and Co. It has really good advice on pot odds and counting bets in order to determine your pot odds (i.e. count bets rather than counting money because it's easier to keep track of). I hope this helps.

[UglyJimStudly]

Downstream said:

I dont have a good grasp on pot odds before the flop, as you can probably tell. I do know pot odds post flop pretty well.Can anyone give me an idea of the concept pre flop?

Assuming you mean the odds of hitting various hands on the flop, here's the ones I keep track of:Flopping a flush: 118-1Flopping trips after starting with unpaired cards: 73-1Flopping two pair after starting with unpaired cards: 48-1Flopping a four-flush after starting with two suited cards: 8-1Flopping a set after starting with a pair: 7.5-1Flopping "something useful" (4-flush, OESD, sometimes inside straight draw) after starting with suited connectors: 5-1Flopping a pair to two unpaired cards: 3-1The first three I use to tell myself how stupid it is to stay in with hands like Q7o or 72s when I'm running cold and tempted to play bad cards. The others are all approximate, and a little off from the actual value in order to ensure that I don't overvalue them. Also useful are the odds of starting with particular hands:AKs: 331-1Pocket Aces: 220-1AKo: 110-1Pocket pair higher than TT: 55-1Suited cards both 10 or higher: 32-1Any pair: 16-1Unsuited cards both 10 or higher: 10-1Any two suited cards: 3-1Mostly these are useful to keep in mind when you think you're running cold and haven't seen a premium pair or an Ace with a big kicker in a while - the top starting hands just aren't that common.

[eleutheromaniac]

If I have money in the middle, I'll call any raise pre-flop. As mentioned before, the pot odds don't change (or if they do, not much, as most players will also call the raise), and on top of which you may have just been giving some valuable insight into the raiser(s)'s hand. I'll also call any raise when I'm already in with the blind, even with 7-2 o. The only situations I can imagine where folding pre-flop with money in the middle is the correct decision is if you are in the small blind and you have to call a raise, or if you've called the blind and there's been two re-raises after you and everyone but the raisers have folded (meaning you have to add 2 chips to the 1 you have in the middle, and are only getting 2-to-1 on your money--and that's assuming the original raiser doesn't cap it after you call).

[holman3rd]

eleutheromaniac said:

If I have money in the middle, I'll call any raise pre-flop. As mentioned before, the pot odds don't change (or if they do, not much, as most players will also call the raise), and on top of which you may have just been giving some valuable insight into the raiser(s)'s hand. I'll also call any raise when I'm already in with the blind, even with 7-2 o. The only situations I can imagine where folding pre-flop with money in the middle is the correct decision is if you are in the small blind and you have to call a raise, or if you've called the blind and there's been two re-raises after you and everyone but the raisers have folded (meaning you have to add 2 chips to the 1 you have in the middle, and are only getting 2-to-1 on your money--and that's assuming the original raiser doesn't cap it after you call).

You can't be serious with this post.

[NorthPacific]

I guess I look at more then just the odds when I am looking at 2 more bets after limping in with questionable hand. Like last night, I limped in with KJs, it was raised by the button and reraised by the SB. Three other limpers and the button called the raises. I had been at the table for about an hour and was sure the two raisers had either high pp or AK, AQ maybe AJ but that would surprise me. Even though the pot was huge and looked to get bigger, the only hand i felt I could win with, would be if the flop came KJx, or JJK, or KKJ, but even those would be losers against KK. Anyway I folded. The hand turned out to be AA v KK. I don't remember the flop but remember saying to myself I was glad I got out.I guess my point is; if you respect the raisers you may want to get out while the getting is good, or face domination.

[wrto4556]

NorthPacific said:

I guess I look at more then just the odds when I am looking at 2 more bets after limping in with questionable hand. Like last night, I limped in with KJs, it was raised by the button and reraised by the SB. Three other limpers and the button called the raises. I had been at the table for about an hour and was sure the two raisers had either high pp or AK, AQ maybe AJ but that would surprise me. Even though the pot was huge and looked to get bigger, the only hand i felt I could win with, would be if the flop came KJx, or JJK, or KKJ, but even those would be losers against KK. Anyway I folded. The hand turned out to be AA v KK. I don't remember the flop but remember saying to myself I was glad I got out.I guess my point is; if you respect the raisers you may want to get out while the getting is good, or face domination.

What about straight and flush draws? Your implied odds are through the roof.

[eleutheromaniac]

holman: The math works, trust me. Or you can keep playing your way, I really don't care, all I know is that this philosophy has won me some huge pots, which I know for a fact have more than covered the cost of calling the raise the times I lost--probably three times over. (Hence pot odds and implied odds).

[NorthPacific]

Yes but it seems the reverse implied odds are through the roof as well, the KJ cant make the nut flush and you need the board to provide the nut straight. With everyone showing strength I would be very wary. I can see the argument for calling the raises, but as in my scenerio, if you believed the raisers had the overcards/pairs, you could be drawing dead. I can think of better places to put my money in.

[wrto4556]

eleutheromaniac said:

holman: The math works, trust me. Or you can keep playing your way, I really don't care, all I know is that this philosophy has won me some huge pots, which I know for a fact have more than covered the cost of calling the raise the times I lost--probably three times over. (Hence pot odds and implied odds).

Let me get this straight.If you are in the BB with 720 and the player UTG raises, you call the single small bet when the action is to you?

[eleutheromaniac]

NorthPacific--I would say your case is very rare: You were playing to the right of two rocks, holding the best two starting hands in hold'em, and you were sharing one of your cards with one of them. I don't think that situation will come up too often, still, NLD on your part. But I would say outside of rare instances like that one, and the situations I described earlier, there is no reason that I can imagine to surrender money you've already put in the pot in limit hold'em pre-flop.wrto--depends entirely on pot odds, and at least partly on the player raising. If everyone's folded to me, or if there's only been one or two callers, I'll gladly release my hand. But If I'm getting 5-to-1 or better on my money, I'll call. I either lose, say, $1 and have 0% chance to win anything, or I put in $2 and have a slim chance to win at least $10 (probably more).I'll give you an example: I had 8-2 o in the big blind and was raised (can't remember which position). I ended up getting 5-to-1 on my money, so I called. 8-2-x hit the flop, and I won what wound up being a huge pot. A similar situation happened with J-7 o, only I was facing two raises but this was an even bigger pot. I called and 7-7-x rainbow hit the flop and I took down a HUGE pot. Between those two pots alone, I've more than covered any loses from calling raises with rags in the blind. And in a reverse situation, I raised with AA, and got called by someone who limped in from UTG+2 with 10-2s (?). 10-2 hit the flop (no str8 or flush draw, I forget what the third card was but it was completely non-threatning, i.e. there was no likely combination of cards he could have to give him two pair, and with his implied odds he took me for quite a bit. In retrospect though I should've put him on pocket 2s or something, but I tend to get tunnel vision whenever I get AA, something I need to remedy.)

[NorthPacific]

I tend to agree with your example of playing rags but in the original poster's scenerio, you limp in and face a raise and a reraise. Playing 82o of J7o you are going to either hit or not, easy fold if not and spectacular/camaflaged if you hit. With QJ, KJ, A9s, K9s, Q10 as stated in the original post, you are probably sharing cards with the raisers or even the other limpers. So if you hit, you don't know where you are, ie. drawing dead, splitting the pot, losing to a higher draw. I tend to agree that the scenerio with 3 limpers and two raisers may be rare, but not rare enough to discount it.

[wrto4556]

eleutheromaniac said:

Between those two pots alone, I've more than covered any loses from calling raises with rags in the blind.

Now I know you're joking.But, if you are being serious, that's a leak in your game that you need to plug with the quickness. Stop calling bets with garbage.

[eleutheromaniac]

Those aren't the only two pots I've won with garbage, those are just the most extreme examples (the biggest pot in the case of J-7 and the worst hand in the case of 8-2). BTW, I also use the same strategy when calling from the small blind if there are no raises. I'm pretty confident that this philosophy has been profitable, although I haven't been keeping stats on these hands so I can't be sure. I guess I could start keeping a tally to find if this is in fact a leak.

[holman3rd]

eleutheromaniac said:

Those aren't the only two pots I've won with garbage, those are just the most extreme examples (the biggest pot in the case of J-7 and the worst hand in the case of 8-2). BTW, I also use the same strategy when calling from the small blind if there are no raises. I'm pretty confident that this philosophy has been profitable, although I haven't been keeping stats on these hands so I can't be sure. I guess I could start keeping a tally to find if this is in fact a leak.

First, if you are in the BB and are facing a raise from one other player, your pot odds are 3.5 to 1, not 5 to 1, and your 72o is a major dog to most hands, especially to over pocket pairs. If you call here, it's a leak.Secondly, defending your BB no matter what is a leak.Thirdly, using your own hand history as proof of your theory is folly.Finally, if you really are serious, you have major leaks in your game.If you don't understand this, that's unfortunate. I'm not tapping on your glass anymore.