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10/20 When Facing An Assumed Bluff


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#41 tylerc

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 12:07 PM

View Postzimmer4141, on Thursday, March 23rd, 2006, 2:41 PM, said:

I guess I don't see why folding KQ in EP at a full table is a big mistake. It is a marginal hand, and I don't think I'm giving up much EV by folding there.That said, I raise in EP with AJ+ suited or unsuited, 77+, fold 66-, and that's about it.
i dont think its so bad, your cutoff for hands in ep is aj and mine is kq. really not that big of a difference. im similar with low pp as well. i will either rse or fold with 77 depending on my feel of the table. if im folding then im usually leaving pretty soon. as for the other guy that limps with ak and aq, we are vastly different my friend. id be interested in seeing how well this works for you.

#42 TB17

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 12:20 PM

It's merely a position thing. A-K and A-Q are really hard to play when OOP and you dont hit. When you raise with A-K and A-Q and someone cold calls, if you dont hit, you USUALLY have to bet again. Then when you get raised, you're practically forced to take a card for 2 bets. I dont like that. I'm not trying to advocate limping, I'm just saying thats how I play. I like to get in with my drawing hands as cheap as possible (I consider A-K and A-Q the best of drawing hands) in EP. Also A-K And A-Q play pretty well in multiway pots so I'm not afraid to have many people in the pot with inferior hands like A-8 and A-10.It's pretty weak but I find it more successful for me personally. I used to raise with A-K all the time from EP but I found myself losing more than winning. Limping in merely gives me a cheaper look at the flop and not having to make a continuation bet...or then folding to 2 or more bets.
Goodbye FCP.

#43 Zach6668

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 12:41 PM

View PostTB17, on Friday, March 24th, 2006, 3:20 PM, said:

It's merely a position thing. A-K and A-Q are really hard to play when OOP and you dont hit. When you raise with A-K and A-Q and someone cold calls, if you dont hit, you USUALLY have to bet again. Then when you get raised, you're practically forced to take a card for 2 bets. I dont like that. I'm not trying to advocate limping, I'm just saying thats how I play. I like to get in with my drawing hands as cheap as possible (I consider A-K and A-Q the best of drawing hands) in EP. Also A-K And A-Q play pretty well in multiway pots so I'm not afraid to have many people in the pot with inferior hands like A-8 and A-10.It's pretty weak but I find it more successful for me personally. I used to raise with A-K all the time from EP but I found myself losing more than winning. Limping in merely gives me a cheaper look at the flop and not having to make a continuation bet...or then folding to 2 or more bets.
DON'T LIMP WITH AK.If you can't play postflop, you shouldn't be playing at those limits. You don't HAVE to make a continuation bet if you are against players who will raise you with air because they think you missed the flop. Learn to play against them, vary your play. Don't make the HUGE mistake of limping AK. Seriously, this is awful.- Zach
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#44 Abbaddabba

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 03:46 PM

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Your PFR tells him that you have good cards. The flop came with a paired board, which decreases the likelihood that you hit the flop, him as well. He wants to test you to see if you actually have a hand. He probably has a PP < J. You three bet telling him you don't believe him and that you have a hand. So good so far. I like it. The problem is he calls the 3-bet. He very well could have the J, and wants you to take the lead, planning on popping the turn or the river.
You have to bet the turn when the ace falls. If he has a smallish pair, it limits your range of hands that he beats to KQ and KQ alone, for a non-maniac - and even then, KQ is somewhat maniacal.

Quote

KQ both suited and unsuited I'm folding until I get to MP in a 10 handed game. I just don't like it because it is a very vulnerable hand, and not necessarily a fun hand to play OOP.
You dont have to raise. Even at tight tables, limping will have a domino effect on the rest of the players - and you have a hand that plays incredibly well in multiway pots. Or heads up, for that matter. Position be damned, you're missing out plenty there i would think.

#45 TB17

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 05:46 PM

I will try limping in with K-Q more. As for limping with A-K, I still prefer it over raising. It's not as huge as everyone is making it out to be to be honest. I'm seeing the flop either way, I just dont have to take the lead when when there's flops like 9-9-10. I may give up a little EV, but it comes back when people overplay their A-Q and A-J because they didn't see me raise on the flop. I like playing A-K for as cheap as possible when I'm in first position. That's all it comes down to. I dont have a problem laying it down on a crappy flop for a bet. It's only A-K high. I've tried all the ramming and jamming, the check-raising only to be called down by 4th pair, it doesn't work for me. If I dont hit, I'm done with it.
Goodbye FCP.

#46 Zach6668

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 05:59 PM

View PostTB17, on Friday, March 24th, 2006, 8:46 PM, said:

I will try limping in with K-Q more. As for limping with A-K, I still prefer it over raising. It's not as huge as everyone is making it out to be to be honest. I'm seeing the flop either way, I just dont have to take the lead when when there's flops like 9-9-10. I may give up a little EV, but it comes back when people overplay their A-Q and A-J because they didn't see me raise on the flop. I like playing A-K for as cheap as possible when I'm in first position. That's all it comes down to. I dont have a problem laying it down on a crappy flop for a bet. It's only A-K high. I've tried all the ramming and jamming, the check-raising only to be called down by 4th pair, it doesn't work for me. If I dont hit, I'm done with it.
You're missing out on a ton of value.That is all.- Zach
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#47 TB17

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:02 PM

View PostZach6668, on Friday, March 24th, 2006, 5:59 PM, said:

You're missing out on a ton of value.
It's not as much as you think.
Goodbye FCP.

#48 Zach6668

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:04 PM

View PostTB17, on Friday, March 24th, 2006, 9:02 PM, said:

It's not as much as you think.
Just learn to play AK properly, both preflop and postflop, and you will make more money.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#49 TB17

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:07 PM

I wont promise to put it on auto raise :club:, but we'll see. It's only one position!
Goodbye FCP.

#50 Zach6668

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Posted 24 March 2006 - 06:15 PM

View PostTB17, on Friday, March 24th, 2006, 9:07 PM, said:

I wont promise to put it on auto raise :club:, but we'll see. It's only one position!
Seriously though, it's just way easier to play post flop if we raise, especially from EP. We really should only get calls from hands that we dominate, assuming strongish players at higher levels (which I don't play, fwiw). Nonetheless, we don't HAVE to fire at the flop. If the flop comes QJ9 or something that everyone would have hit, we don't HAVE to bet out. We can check/call, check/fold. I realize being out of position blows, but we don't HAVE to ALWAYS fire a continuation bet. Also, if you are playing with players who will c/r with air because they want to put you on a whiffed AK, then vary your postflop play with it. C/r them when you are OOP, or check the turn after being called on your flop continuation bet, etc. If you are playing players who are paying attention vary your play, and switch gears, etc.- Zach
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#51 Abbaddabba

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 03:09 AM

Quote

If the flop comes QJ9 or something that everyone would have hit, we don't HAVE to bet out.
If you're getting enough players cold calling you that you need to question whether to bet the a QJ9 flop, raising preflop is for so much value it hurts.

#52 Zach6668

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Posted 25 March 2006 - 09:04 AM

View PostAbbaddabba, on Saturday, March 25th, 2006, 6:09 AM, said:

If you're getting enough players cold calling you that you need to question whether to bet the a QJ9 flop, raising preflop is for so much value it hurts.
Yeah, bad example.How about something like 789
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.




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