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10/20 When Facing An Assumed Bluff


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#1 tylerc

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Posted 19 March 2006 - 03:13 PM

i cant remember the last time i posted a hand but i thought this one was kind of interesting. the villian is very loose/aggro and i have seen him cc with anything down to low connectors and weak suited aces. he is capable of laying hands down as well. i basically think this is for sure a bluff on the flop because if he had anything of real value im thinking he would have waited the turn to raise. im mostly curious on the river bet here for value or even going for a ckrse on the turn rather than threebetting the flop? how do you guys play when you are in these situations?Poker StarsLimit Holdem Ring gameLimit: $10/$2010 playersConverterStack sizes:UTG: $184Hero: $682UTG+2: $275MP1: $950.50MP2: $315MP3: $443CO: $216Button: $353.50SB: $623BB: $581Pre-flop: (10 players) Hero is UTG+1 with :D :D UTG folds, Hero raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, 6 folds.Flop: :D :club: :) (5.5SB, 2 players)Hero bets, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP1 calls.Turn: :) (5.75BB, 2 players)Hero bets, MP1 calls.River: :) (7.75BB, 2 players)Hero bets, MP1 calls.Results:Final pot: 9.75BBthe endcome on, man is this hand so lame that no one wants to talk about it? is it just way too read dependant to talk about if you werent there?

#2 Pancake407

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 05:37 AM

I don't understand the flop 3-bet. Maybe he doesnt have a J, but he could have a pp, and he has no reason to give you credit for a J raising from UTG+1. The turn you have to bet to try and fold a better hand. I don't think id bet that river, i'd probably check/call instead. I also don't play 10/20, so I may be talking outta my *** :club:.
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#3 Zach6668

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Posted 20 March 2006 - 08:39 AM

I've been looking at this hand a bit, and I'm not really sure that I like it.If you just assume he is bluffing, is he doing it with a hand that K-high beats? If he is, then there is no reason to 3-bet the flop. If he wants to keep bluffing, so be it.On the other hand, hour hand sucks. We have no showdown value until we hit on the river, even then, I still think we are beat very often here. I really think this is one of those hands that you should just let go of.- Zach
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#4 tylerc

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 01:15 PM

ok, i want to add a little more to this hand so it doesnt look like im a total retard. if this were the first hand i sat down at the table with i would have called the flop raise and check/folded the turn unimproved. i had been sitting for a while and i have played with the villian a few times before. you are correct that im not ahead of too many hands. on the other hand the best hand i am expecting from him is 88 and maybe 99. the worst hand is something like 35 suited. he cc with a large veriety of weak hands and three bets with anything down to aqoff. i have actually seen him do this exact same move with 35s when he only picked up a gutshot. it is a very common move when you get hu with a board like this to raise no matter what you have if you are last to act. i have also taken the check/fold line on the turn twice in a row and he may have picked up on it. the three bet was actually a kneejerk reaction cause i knew it was most likely bluffing, and even if he is slightly ahead i think i could make him lay it down to some aggression. all that being said i dont really like the line i took. so lets just say im not going to do the check/fold turn line here. what do you think the best line is instead if i put him on a range of hands from 88 to say 65s? i hope this doesnt sound like im making excuses for my poor play, i really just want to talk about ways to play against an almost sure bluff that you might even be behind. i also think the turn and river card make this hand a little more interesting than most.

#5 Zach6668

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 01:25 PM

I don't play 10/20.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#6 Pancake407

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 01:25 PM

Well, obviously the flop 3-bet isn't standard, so you thought you could make a play at the pot. So I can't argue you for that, as it depends on the opponent and nobody here knows the opponent. But, once he calls the turn, you know hes coming to showdown, so why bet the river?
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#7 tylerc

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 02:02 PM

i think the only part i liked about my original line is betting the river. i figured i sucked out on the river to some pp or 7 and it was a bet for value. the only hand that i could reasonably see losing to was and ace and i thought it was improbable since he didnt rse the turn. as for threebetting i think it is bad. what do you think about betting the turn vs checking it if i didnt 3bet. if you check do you ckrse or just fold here thinking he has to have a ace or isnt folding for **** and you need to improve but maybe now have up to ten outs but probably 4? im starting to think posting this hand was stupid because it is way too read dependant. sorry if ive wasted your time. it did get me to think about it more though so i guess i win in the end. yeah me.

#8 Zach6668

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 03:15 PM

View Posttylerc, on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 5:02 PM, said:

i think the only part i liked about my original line is betting the river. i figured i sucked out on the river to some pp or 7 and it was a bet for value. the only hand that i could reasonably see losing to was and ace and i thought it was improbable since he didnt rse the turn. as for threebetting i think it is bad. what do you think about betting the turn vs checking it if i didnt 3bet. if you check do you ckrse or just fold here thinking he has to have a ace or isnt folding for **** and you need to improve but maybe now have up to ten outs but probably 4? im starting to think posting this hand was stupid because it is way too read dependant. sorry if ive wasted your time. it did get me to think about it more though so i guess i win in the end. yeah me.
If I've somehow made it that far, I'm not folding when I pair up.A bet is ok, but I would really really hate to be raised on the end here, because then I think you HAVE to fold.Here is my take on this hand:Your PFR tells him that you have good cards. The flop came with a paired board, which decreases the likelihood that you hit the flop, him as well. He wants to test you to see if you actually have a hand. He probably has a PP < J. You three bet telling him you don't believe him and that you have a hand. So good so far. I like it. The problem is he calls the 3-bet. He very well could have the J, and wants you to take the lead, planning on popping the turn or the river.Clearly, once you get to the turn, you have to continue to show the strength you did on the flop. Of course, we have to fold to a raise as well. Ok, he just calls. He clearly wants to take his hand to showdown now, and he still might be planning a raise on the river, and all we have is K-high.River comes, ok, I've paired my top card, but really, I have no idea where I am. I'm hoping that he has a small PP or a 7 and wants to go to showdown, but since the A came on the turn, he must know that if I just had overcards, I very likely paired up with the A. I really don't want to have to fold after investing so much into this pot and then finally catching a pair. I'm torn between bet/folding, and check/calling though. I think he's aggressive enough to bet it if we check to him though, hoping that we fold our QQ or something like that. I think the river should be a c/c.Just my 2 cents.- ZachPS - I don't play 10/20.
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#9 Actuary

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 03:42 PM

its very sad that those who play 10/20 aren't posting in here or anywherre in LHE strategyI didn't read the hand.but as a good rule of thumb: play your best.

#10 tylerc

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 03:49 PM

View PostActuary, on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 3:42 PM, said:

I didn't read the hand.
why not, its totally awesomely interesting. on a side note is it a good sign if more than half the posts on your hand are your own?

#11 Actuary

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 03:59 PM

View Posttylerc, on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 3:49 PM, said:

why not, its totally awesomely interesting. on a side note is it a good sign if more than half the posts on your hand are your own?
well, I don't play at that level.And its so read dependentAnd words like Meta-Game come into play.ps: river bet is good. Nothing pisssses players off like a donkey hitting his out on the river after betting it the whole way.

#12 Zach6668

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 04:08 PM

View PostActuary, on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 6:59 PM, said:

well, I don't play at that level.And its so read dependentAnd words like Meta-Game come into play.ps: river bet is good. Nothing pisssses players off like a donkey hitting his out on the river after betting it the whole way.
This is a good point. I love betting my AK UI until I spike an A on the river, and then get berated for not folding (?) when the guy flips over what had been TPTK. Seriously though Tyler, as much as I hate to admit it. There really aren't that many posters who will regularly comment on hands from as high as 10/20 on this site. It's a real shame too. Don't leave for that reason, because we are trying to grow this site to include it, but for now, all of the regular posters play 5/10 or less, generally.Also, this hand is VERY read dependent, and anything but standard, so it is hard for a lot of us to comment on it, having not had to develop these skills. I tried to take an objective look at it in my above post, and I don't know what you thought of that, but for the most part, stuff like Meta-Game and all that has yet to be applied by a lot of us. Thank you for posting hands that we can all learn on though. I love seeing hands like this from 10/20, because someday, hopefully, I'll be playing in them, and need to apply some of this knowledge.- Zach
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#13 Actuary

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 04:13 PM

what my friend Zach is trying to say is:what site?and what's your sn?he's just too nice to say it. :club:

#14 tylerc

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 07:50 PM

aww do you want to rail me? if you really do just send me a message. i feel wierd publishing in the public mostly because my style is very easily exploitable. it probably wouldnt be very entertaining either because im pretty ****ing tight/passive. not like this hand shows but im almost always the most passive guy at the table and have to catch myself from slowplaying toppair on the flop even if its as low as a 9. ill try to post more hands too but the only ones i find really interesting are ones like these and no one can really make much of a comment cause they dont know the players involved. if anyone cares ive thought about this hand a lot the past couple days and i think ckrsing the turn is a better play if he calls c/c the river or c/f (im not really sure) cause i need to weigh how much i think he has an ace or he thinks im totally full of **** and got really stubborn. he had a10 by the way so my read was sort of right, and the turn card made any real line here kind of moot. i still think the hand is pretty interesting the way it played out. i just reread your analysis zach and i think thats pretty dead on to what was going on in my head except i thought it was way more likely i sucked out on him on the river.

#15 zimmer4141

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 09:25 PM

OK, I've played as high as 20/40, and I don't really like this hand at all. I don't really even like the preflop raise honestly in a 10 handed game. However, with that flop raise, he is likely raising to protect a mid pocket pair or a 7 possibly. After the A hits, we are ahead of absolutely nothing that is playing this way. Our only hope is to suckout like we did. I really prefer betting the flop, calling the flop raise and folding the turn UI, especially after an A hits. While there are times to play back at super LAGs with less than optimal holdings, I simply don't think this is one of them.
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#16 Zach6668

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 09:49 PM

Thanks for contributing Zimmer, that is kinda what I'm thinking, but it's good to see a post from someone who has played that high.- Zach
QUOTE (serge @ Tuesday, May 12th, 2009, 7:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
LETS GO PITTSBURGH
QUOTE (Acid_Knight @ Monday, March 10th, 2008, 4:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Zach is right about pretty much everything.

#17 tylerc

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 09:50 PM

View Postzimmer4141, on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 9:25 PM, said:

OK, I've played as high as 20/40, and I don't really like this hand at all. I don't really even like the preflop raise honestly in a 10 handed game. However, with that flop raise, he is likely raising to protect a mid pocket pair or a 7 possibly. After the A hits, we are ahead of absolutely nothing that is playing this way. Our only hope is to suckout like we did. I really prefer betting the flop, calling the flop raise and folding the turn UI, especially after an A hits. While there are times to play back at super LAGs with less than optimal holdings, I simply don't think this is one of them.
are you folding this preflop? what if its suited?

#18 zimmer4141

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 10:04 PM

View Posttylerc, on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 9:50 PM, said:

are you folding this preflop? what if its suited?
KQ both suited and unsuited I'm folding until I get to MP in a 10 handed game. I just don't like it because it is a very vulnerable hand, and not necessarily a fun hand to play OOP.
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#19 tylerc

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 10:16 PM

View Postzimmer4141, on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 10:04 PM, said:

KQ both suited and unsuited I'm folding until I get to MP in a 10 handed game. I just don't like it because it is a very vulnerable hand, and not necessarily a fun hand to play OOP.
hmm, what do you play in ep, or when your first in for that matter? whats your vp$ip?god i wish i wanted to talk about this hand more. im pretty burnt out with all that crap i already wrote about my reads and stuff, but thanks for the response anyway.

#20 allinbluff35

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 10:25 PM

View Postzimmer4141, on Thursday, March 23rd, 2006, 12:04 AM, said:

KQ both suited and unsuited I'm folding until I get to MP in a 10 handed game. I just don't like it because it is a very vulnerable hand, and not necessarily a fun hand to play OOP.
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