21 replies to this topic

[DwayneWayne]

5-10 NL live game.You have $1250 (started with 1K), average stack at table is around 1500, big stack is at 3K.You are in the SB and pick up AdKsEP ($1000)raises to $50, LP ($800)calls, you call, BB ($2000)calls. 4 to the flop. Pot = $200FlopQs-4s-3sYou check, BB checks, EP checks, LP checks.TurnKdYour play?

[Devilkin]

Ok I have TPTK, and the second nut flush draw. Seems easy, assuming its checked around to me, to bet - something along the lines of pot-sized. The checks around imply weakness compared to the flop, or fear of the flush possibility. The four checks around would give everyone the impression that no one has the flush, so betting should open back up this round.Caveat is whether I've seen someone slowplaying previously . .but it still calls for a informational bet.DevPS - why am I calling with AKo preflop? Seems like a raise to me . . .

[Absolute]

First off, why did you check the flop?On the turn I would bet out $200, pot sized bet that puts you right back at your starting stack, and leaves you plenty if someone moves over the top of you and makes you fold.Something else to consider is this. Maybe you want to bet small to allow anyone else with a high to see a river, and then clean up. The only problem is you might be allowing the A to see the river if you don't bet strong enough.I still reccomend a pot-sized bet here with top pair and top kicker on the turn, especially considering the weak play on the flop.

[Absolute]

Devilkin said:

PS - why am I calling with AKo preflop? Seems like a raise to me . . .

Someone raised 5x the big blind pre-flop.I think a smooth call with AK is appropriate to that raise.

[DwayneWayne]

The fact that I was in the SB with 2 other players already in would call for a raise of atleast $200 or more to knock them out, I didn’t want to make that kind of a move out of position. I was hoping to see a favorable flop or get out of the way. The EP player had only shown down solid hands for the time I was sitting there and the LP had just sat back down from being off the table I really didn’t have a great read.The fact that I didn’t re-raise pre-flop out of the SB with AKo is this too weak tight? I don’t know that putting a huge re-raise out of position is a smart play here.I’d like to hear a couple of more posts before I continue with the hand.Thanks....

[Devilkin]

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Someone raised 5x the big blind pre-flop.I think a smooth call with AK is appropriate to that raise.

Depends on your playing style. Some people view AKo as a possible winner unto itself, while others view it as a drawing hand, one that is played best with more than one caller.Since I already have a raiser and a caller before me, thats 10BB in the pot before it gets to me, 15 if I call, 20 if I reraise, 25 if the original bettor calls and the first caller folds. More than enough in the pot at that point for me to look to isolating the original caller.Not saying Im right and you are wrong . . I just live to debate. :)Dev

[Absolute]

I just think that if an EP player raises more than 3x the big blind, you have to consider A-A K-K Q-Q as very possible hands.

[DwayneWayne]

I don’t think re-raising a solid player who has shown considerable strength into this pot up to this point out of position can be considered here. This isn’t a tournament where you are looking to get all of your chips in. I can’t believe AKo is the best hand right now and there is no reason for me to proceed out of the SB like it is.

[Devilkin]

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I just think that if an EP player raises more than 3x the big blind, you have to consider A-A K-K Q-Q as very possible hands.

Thus the reason for the reraise - if he reraises you back, then I DEFINITELY put him on these hands. If not, its still way up in the air.A raise does two things - isolates, and information on just how strong the hand is.VERY useful post flop if you miss completely.Dev

[DwayneWayne]

How much are you re-raising?QQ isn’t 3 betting here and you still have the LP player to deal with.Does a $200 re-raise fold 10-10 or JJ, I doubt it. When the flop comes rags what then? fire another shot from behind the 8 ball that is the SB?

[Absolute]

I still don't like the re-raise here.AK is a good drawing hand, but it's also a good trap hand.What are you doing by re-raising what is already a significant raise without AA KK or QQ? 4 times out of 5 you are giving chips away.For example, say you are re-raising a hand like 10-10 or J-J which is very possible in this situation.The flop comes 5 9 10Uh oh? Now you are beat by 10-10, J-J, Q-Q, K-K, A-A (all hands that you can put someone on with a 5x the BB raise pre-flop)Why not just call and see a flop?

[DwayneWayne]

Ok....so the turn comesKdI bet out $200 (pot sized bet). BB Folds.EP Calls, LP min raises and makes it $400 to go.$200 back to me, Now what?

[DeadMoney6545]

re-raise all in.... no seriously ... dont see how u get away from the hand when it still leaves u with 800 hundred.... gotta call.... although the suited connectors the LP played and flopped the flush are kinda scary right now.... i think u need to look at the river for 2 hundy more....I'm an ultra-agressive player though.. i still think LP played the 5/6 suited and flopped the flush... now whether or not u river out i dunno...

[KDawgCometh]

I think a smooth call might be in order here. The min raise is very scary. He could very well be holding KK or AA with the nut flush draw. Your either ahead here or demolished

[BilliardsBoy]

I call. Here's my thought process:1. He thinks your stabbing at the pot after checks on the turn. EP just calling means that he may not have a great hand either. He may have a Q or K, possibly even AK just as you do. If he thinks he has a hand that is better than either of you, the min raise will look like a "please call me" bet, hoping that the inferior and possibly drawing hands fold.2. If he's legit in his action, raising here is suicide. If he has a K with a weaker kicker, you got him. Heck, even two pair you still can hit your A for a better two pair, so I think folding is also out of the question.3. Calling may slow him down if he's not confident about his hand. If he goes over the top on the river, you probably know that your beat and can fold your TPTK. Also, if I'm correct there is 1000 in the pot right now, giving you 5-1 on your money, pretty damn good IMO. If you call and the EP calls as well, there will be 1400 in the pot on the river.Basically, I'd call the bet here and see what developes on the river. LP will probably push all in on the river being that he's put more than half his chips into this pot. That may sound bad, but you could hit your flush, and if not you may think your hand is good enough to call his 350 all in for a 1550-1750 dollar pot.

[Devilkin]

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What are you doing by re-raising what is already a significant raise without AA KK or QQ?

Good question, and that depends on the table, and how loose the players are you are playing against.Keep in mind I play lower limits, $5/$10 S&G, and $25 NL, so I'm playing against a number of players that WILL raise 5xBB (or more) with marginal hands.Just my experience playing against the tank of fish - once I move to the higher tables where people play much more 'predictably' (meaning a large raise like 5xBB IS declaring a premium hand) I'll play a little more conservatively.Dev

[DwayneWayne]

I called the $200, the EP folded.The river brought the 7d.I check and make a crying call of his all-in for his last $350 ish.He turns over ATs. For the flopped nut flush.I was trying to see if there was anyway to get out of this hand, I feel the turn bet was just a tease and begging for a call.... I really have a hard time calling any raise on that turn, is a fold there a weak play?***What if the LP pushed on the turn? Is that still a call.....

[DeadMoney6545]

is it good to be able to read guys from a post on a forum? I knew he had the fwush......lol...IMHO u cant get away.... u played it well... he just played it better... it happens.. u'll get it back..

[Metro]

BilliardsBoy said:

I call. Here's my thought process:1. He thinks your stabbing at the pot after checks on the turn. EP just calling means that he may not have a great hand either. He may have a Q or K, possibly even AK just as you do. If he thinks he has a hand that is better than either of you, the min raise will look like a "please call me" bet, hoping that the inferior and possibly drawing hands fold.2. If he's legit in his action, raising here is suicide. If he has a K with a weaker kicker, you got him. Heck, even two pair you still can hit your A for a better two pair, so I think folding is also out of the question.3. Calling may slow him down if he's not confident about his hand. If he goes over the top on the river, you probably know that your beat and can fold your TPTK. Also, if I'm correct there is 1000 in the pot right now, giving you 5-1 on your money, pretty damn good IMO. If you call and the EP calls as well, there will be 1400 in the pot on the river.

In the initial post, you state that you are in the SB... How does everyone check the turn if you bet out on the turn? You were first to act. Perhaps here you meant bet the flop? But even then, I don't think it would look like a stab, since you very well could have been scared of the flush. I could easily see you having a K or Q here. The shortstack min-raising the turn with 3 to the flush out there and 2 others in the hand screams to me.. "I've got the nuts" Any suited connectors would push in to try to drive out the overspades. Any As-xoff would probably be content to just call, or make a crying all-in and hope to catch. The minraise just says, "Good, my slowplay worked, someone caught something on the turn. Let's see if I can get all my chips in. An all-in here might get him to fold, and that's bad... Min-Raise!"