20 replies to this topic

[Mattnxtc]

James 2:14-26 is a very tricky passage. It is used by mormons to justify the fact that it must be faith + works. That faith isnt enough to get to heaven. That we must also have works. Now the problem of course is that this contradicts a numerous amount of bible passages which leads to the question...Does the bible contradict itself. Well I want to spend some time looking at what James said and what the purpose of this passage was. What I hope you get from this is that James is not referring to being saved in reference to our eternal life but instead to the fact that faith itself while sufficient for salvation is useless on this earth. See James is looking at life in a temporal matter not an eternal matter. Faith gets you to the afterlife, but it does nothing to help those that live and struggle on this earth. As you read all of James which I hope you will, you will notice that he doesnt refer to eternal matters but to matters that relate to believers on this earth. That is the goal of James. To help believers understand how you are to live your life while on this earth. Many believers believe that they can just sit and do nothing while they wait to get to heaven. James is tryin to tell them that while you are on this earth you need to be expressing your faith. Now James 2:14 says "What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can faith save him?"Now this begs the question: is faith alone not enough. Well there are a few interpretations of this verse:1. Works are a condition of receiving eternal life The problem with this one is that it contradicts the bible in so many places specifically:Romans 4:4-5 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."Romans 3:28 "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast"So it appears that this option isnt correct2. If you are disobedient, it proves you were never saved.This is another prominant idea, that if you somebody is disobedient to God in thier works then they were never actually believers. This of course has a few contradictions also:1 John 5:13 "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life1 Corinthians 3:10-15 "According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."Now both passages say that we are saved and that we know we are saved. Therefore we cannot be unsure of our salvation.3. That "save" doesnt refer to eternal life but to something elseThis is the one I will be arguing for. First a little back ground:Save has a variety of meanings in the New Testament. 1. Physical deliverance from death or sickness (Mt. 27:49; Mt. 8:25; Mt. 14:30)2. Salvation from this world at the time of Jesus’ return (Rom 13:11).3. Salvation from the power of sin in our lives, i.e. sanctification (1 Peter 2:2).4. Salvation for believers from the consequences of sin (James 1:15; 1 Cor. 3:10-15).It is my contention that in this case James is referring to: Salvation from the consequences of sin. Why do i believe this? James 1:12-13 - Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, " I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.James 1:21 "Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted which is able to save your souls. Now that I have shown that lets tackle the actual passage:Verses 14-17 - notice very clearly the example that James gives. Faith is not shown to be useless to yourself, but instead it is useless to your brother or sister who is in need. Verse 16 makes it clear that if you tell somebody to be warm but dont give them what is necessary then what good have you done? Again notice that it does not refer to the person but to a brother or sister...It refers to displaying your faith through works. Verses 18-20 - This is the case of the imaginary objector. James is referencing to somebody who could object to what he is saying. So he acts as the person asking the question. Now the greek doesnt have quotation marks and it is my contention that the quotes should go after 19 and not at the end of 18....why you ask? 1 Corinthians 15:35 - "But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?" Paul follows the up by saying in verse 36 "You fool!..." Now if you notice how verse 20 starts, it starts off the exact same with James calling somebody a foolish fellow. anyways whats the point of this objector. Well he is tryin to show that faith and works can be seperate. Well we know that people that dont believe in Jesus do good works and that demons have faith but only shudder. So whats the point James is tryin to make. Now since we have already established that James wasnt referring to eternal life but that he was referring to using faith we can again see the point he is making. That you can have all the genuine faith in the world. You can believe 100% in God and be secured...but it is useless b/c nobody will ever see it. It is in fact useless b/c nobody will ever see your faith in action. It just sits there unused building dust. You dont lose anything from it but you also dont build up your ministry either. Verses 21-26 - Finally to end the section James gives 2 examples for us to learn from:1. The story of Abraham. If we go back to Genesis we see that in Genesis 15:6 Abraham believed in God. Then in Genesis 20, Abraham sacrifices Isaac. This is showing how Abrahams faith matured to the point that his works were results of his growing faith. B/c he believed his actions resulted in him doing what the Lord commanded him to do. Romans 4:2-3 "If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”2. The story of Rahab - Again it was her faith that saved her from death. Her works were a result of her faithHebrews 11:31 "By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient."Now I know this was super long but I hope this was useful in seeing what James wanted to talk about. James was not worried about our eternal salvation in this passage but instead about how we expressed our faith to others. Again I hope you notice how James emphasizes that no matter how much faith we have, unless we express our faith it is useless to others.

[Loismustdie]

This is easy. Google KJV Bible, do a search on faith, and then read above and below each of the passages, and take themn all into consideration. You will find that faith alone is not enough- you will actually find theat when teh question is posed " Is faith enough? " The answer that is given them is " NO." I need to focus on other things right now. Tommorow, I will personally paste a lesson on faith in here. Tottaly original, shared by me and we will come from the angle of my lack thereof.

[Mattnxtc]

I had to edit this as I still had The message up on E-sword...the message uses the word faith 161 times. The NASB uses it 228 times. See what Jesus says when He heals people..."Your faith is enough, Your faith has saved you..." Notice that in all the gospels...Jesus never once says your faith and good works were why I saved you but that your faith alone is why I saved you... Faith is enough for Jesus...but not for others? why is that. Luke 18:8 "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" (Jesus speaking)Luke 7:50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." (Jesus speaking)Acts 6:5 The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch. Acts 15:9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Actss 26:18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.' (Jesus speaking)Romans 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." Romans 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Romans 3:27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faithRomans 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, Romans 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; Ephesians 3:17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, Ok i think yall get the point... And more specifically if you look at Romans 4:5 and then at James 2...if you believe that in James 2 that the faith mentioned is our eternal life then those 2 contradict...Im not even sure how many verses i just put down..I had 228 to chose from so i just put down a few. But you get the point. FAITH IS MORE THAN ENOUGH

[Loismustdie]

Lesson coming soon, don't worry.

[Mattnxtc]

Loismustdie, on Monday, March 13th, 2006, 11:10 AM, said:

Lesson coming soon, don't worry.

I look forward to seeing how it brings contradictions to your bible. Its amazing how you can still believe as your version has so many contradictions that you must have a whole lot of faith to continue believing

[Loismustdie]

Mattnxtc, on Monday, March 13th, 2006, 12:17 PM, said:

I look forward to seeing how it brings contradictions to your bible. Its amazing how you can still believe as your version has so many contradictions that you must have a whole lot of faith to continue believing

It will blow your mind. It won't help you, but it might help others. You are too far gone.

[Mattnxtc]

Loismustdie, on Monday, March 13th, 2006, 11:19 AM, said:

It will blow your mind. It won't help you, but it might help others. You are too far gone.

haha yes im to far gone b/c i believe what the 228 verse on faith say in the bible...imagine that...u can take a look at the ones i posted above...i think its like 20 or so...notice how it never says faith + anything...they say faith alone...its not a hard concept

[DonkSlayer]

This all says to me that good works is not required but living a life of faith thereby dictates good works....If you live a life of faith, then you basically by default will commit good works.However, good works is not required nor is it a stand-alone...it is not a chicken-or-the-egg argument. Take the example of the fellow crucifee on the cross that Jesus saved...

[Mattnxtc]

DonkSlayer, on Monday, March 13th, 2006, 12:35 PM, said:

This all says to me that good works is not required but living a life of faith thereby dictates good works....If you live a life of faith, then you basically by default will commit good works.However, good works is not required nor is it a stand-alone...it is not a chicken-or-the-egg argument. Take the example of the fellow crucifee on the cross that Jesus saved...

That is exactly the point...I hoped it was clear as it was a ton of information to go through...Great job

[brvheart]

DonkSlayer, on Monday, March 13th, 2006, 2:35 PM, said:

This all says to me that good works is not required but living a life of faith thereby dictates good works....If you live a life of faith, then you basically by default will commit good works.However, good works is not required nor is it a stand-alone...it is not a chicken-or-the-egg argument. Take the example of the fellow crucifee on the cross that Jesus saved...

This is exactly correct...

[Mattnxtc]

bumped so that it can be seen for the "contradiction"

[Loismustdie]

DonkSlayer, on Monday, March 13th, 2006, 1:35 PM, said:

This all says to me that good works is not required but living a life of faith thereby dictates good works....If you live a life of faith, then you basically by default will commit good works.However, good works is not required nor is it a stand-alone...it is not a chicken-or-the-egg argument. Take the example of the fellow crucifee on the cross that Jesus saved...

So without the works your faith would be no good, or non existent. So, faith without works would be dead. "Shew me thy faith with no works and I will shew you my faith BY my works. " Pretty simple.

[Mattnxtc]

Loismustdie, on Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 12:29 PM, said:

So without the works your faith would be no good, or non existent. So, faith without works would be dead. "Shew me thy faith with no works and I will shew you my faith BY my works. " Pretty simple.

um...no...do u actually read the the bible or just look for what fits ur views? You are not right on this...it will be much easier for you win you admit it...Your views contradict themselves..but you dont seem to realize this...Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselvs, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no man may boast"So based off of your view...Faith and works save you but Paul says only faith saves you...so you and paul contradict...whom...i wonder who is wrong of you 2

[Loismustdie]

Mattnxtc, on Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 1:35 PM, said:

um...no...do u actually read the the bible or just look for what fits ur views? You are not right on this...it will be much easier for you win you admit it...Your views contradict themselves..but you dont seem to realize this...Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselvs, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no man may boast"So based off of your view...Faith and works save you but Paul says only faith saves you...so you and paul contradict...whom...i wonder who is wrong of you 2

LOLOLOLOL. GIFT OF GOD WAS THE FACT THAT JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Not of works, lest any man should boast- his point is that it is not of youself, without the help of God you cannot have been in the positio that you are today. Thats pretty simple to see. The scripture plainly say that faith alone does not save you, or belief alone. What is faith exactly? Just a strong belief in something. I have faith that Christ did in fact walk the earth, teach a few things that are of God and he died for my sins. That, in and of itself is not enough. The bible clearly tells you what is. Good job misinterpeting Paul though. Did you hebrew bible and bilingual ability help with that as well?

[Mattnxtc]

Loismustdie, on Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 1:29 PM, said:

LOLOLOLOL. GIFT OF GOD WAS THE FACT THAT JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS IN THE FIRST PLACE. Not of works, lest any man should boast- his point is that it is not of youself, without the help of God you cannot have been in the positio that you are today. Thats pretty simple to see. The scripture plainly say that faith alone does not save you, or belief alone. What is faith exactly? Just a strong belief in something. I have faith that Christ did in fact walk the earth, teach a few things that are of God and he died for my sins. That, in and of itself is not enough. The bible clearly tells you what is. Good job misinterpeting Paul though. Did you hebrew bible and bilingual ability help with that as well?

See heres teh thing...u start off so well...u get it all right..and then u come back with saying "The scriptures plainly say that faith alone does not save you, or belief alone" and then u fall from christianity and move to some cult religion. The fact is that you again do have biblical proof. James 2 doesnt help you in any way. Thats already clear. You cant rely on Peter or Paul to bail you out b/c their view of how you are saved is quite clear too...Even Jesus healed people based off of their faith alone. So you are left contradicting the Disciples and Apostles...but ur right and they are wrong haha.And further to show ur "biblical brilliance" you claim that the NT is hebrew. The problem is you read a book out of context and make ur own views up. You dont actually study and then wonder why people question you. The NT was actually written in Greek. The OT was written in Hebrew...but good try

[Loismustdie]

Mattnxtc, on Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 3:14 PM, said:

See heres teh thing...u start off so well...u get it all right..and then u come back with saying "The scriptures plainly say that faith alone does not save you, or belief alone" and then u fall from christianity and move to some cult religion. The fact is that you again do have biblical proof. James 2 doesnt help you in any way. Thats already clear. You cant rely on Peter or Paul to bail you out b/c their view of how you are saved is quite clear too...Even Jesus healed people based off of their faith alone. So you are left contradicting the Disciples and Apostles...but ur right and they are wrong haha.And further to show ur "biblical brilliance" you claim that the NT is hebrew. The problem is you read a book out of context and make ur own views up. You dont actually study and then wonder why people question you. The NT was actually written in Greek. The OT was written in Hebrew...but good try

How can you possibly combat scripture that plainly say that faith alone does not save you? It's impossible.

Mattnxtc, on Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 3:14 PM, said:

See heres teh thing...u start off so well...u get it all right..and then u come back with saying "The scriptures plainly say that faith alone does not save you, or belief alone" and then u fall from christianity and move to some cult religion. The fact is that you again do have biblical proof. James 2 doesnt help you in any way. Thats already clear. You cant rely on Peter or Paul to bail you out b/c their view of how you are saved is quite clear too...Even Jesus healed people based off of their faith alone. So you are left contradicting the Disciples and Apostles...but ur right and they are wrong haha.And further to show ur "biblical brilliance" you claim that the NT is hebrew. The problem is you read a book out of context and make ur own views up. You dont actually study and then wonder why people question you. The NT was actually written in Greek. The OT was written in Hebrew...but good try

And as far as cult goes, well ,that's a new one. This from the guy that says insane murderers have minds to serve God. See, the thing is this- I just read the bible and go, hmm, makes sense, I see, got it. You go, Hmm, well, no, that can't be right becasue I believe this- so, Hey, I got it!! That word right there is wrong, and that right there, well, it doesn't say that at all, it actually says this because the original text had this word instea, never mind that by doing so YOU COMPLETELY CHANGE THE WHOLE MEANING OF THE SCRIPTURE. Nevermind that your new translation is put together by men with the agenda to change the gospel that Jesus taught. Thye will be punished dearly for there sins. But I digress, it is I that take things out of context, it is I that twists the scriptures, it is I that can't seem to cross reference and put 2 and 2 together. Yep, it's me.

[Mattnxtc]

Loismustdie, on Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 7:34 PM, said:

How can you possibly combat scripture that plainly say that faith alone does not save you? It's impossible. And as far as cult goes, well ,that's a new one. This from the guy that says insane murderers have minds to serve God. See, the thing is this- I just read the bible and go, hmm, makes sense, I see, got it. You go, Hmm, well, no, that can't be right becasue I believe this- so, Hey, I got it!! That word right there is wrong, and that right there, well, it doesn't say that at all, it actually says this because the original text had this word instea, never mind that by doing so YOU COMPLETELY CHANGE THE WHOLE MEANING OF THE SCRIPTURE. Nevermind that your new translation is put together by men with the agenda to change the gospel that Jesus taught. Thye will be punished dearly for there sins. But I digress, it is I that take things out of context, it is I that twists the scriptures, it is I that can't seem to cross reference and put 2 and 2 together. Yep, it's me.

Bolded part is not correct...If he has truly repented and asked Jesus into His life he is saved..if he is just saying it but it isnt true..then he will go to hell....As for the rest of the nonsense u wrote...thats really all it is. The NASB is the modern better version of the KJV. What I find remarkable is that you put so much faith in a mere translation. Those who wrote the NASB had more greek to look from then the KJV, The NASB is written in modern language using the best possible modern word. So for u to say there is an agenda is to say that the KJV as has an agenda. The NASB is the best most consistant version available today..so im sorry but ull have to live with that...As for the tex. You have never once shown me to be wrong on text. You make claims and post one or 2 verses that thats the problem. You take something out of context WITH THE ENTIRE BIBLE and say that we shoudl build around those 2 verses. That is the absolute worst way to do it. In the case of James 2, you disregard the entire flow of James in order to believe in something that some "Church of Christ" pastor told you to guilt u into being worried about yoru salvation. When I read a text I say hmm what does this word mean. So what do I do..I GO STRAIGHT TO THE GREEK for clarification. Some words dont translate well but you are to naive to realize that...I trust the greek over any translation and the fact that you dont loses a lot of credibility for you...

[Loismustdie]

Mattnxtc, on Tuesday, March 21st, 2006, 8:50 PM, said:

Bolded part is not correct...If he has truly repented and asked Jesus into His life he is saved..if he is just saying it but it isnt true..then he will go to hell....As for the rest of the nonsense u wrote...thats really all it is. The NASB is the modern better version of the KJV. What I find remarkable is that you put so much faith in a mere translation. Those who wrote the NASB had more greek to look from then the KJV, The NASB is written in modern language using the best possible modern word. So for u to say there is an agenda is to say that the KJV as has an agenda. The NASB is the best most consistant version available today..so im sorry but ull have to live with that...As for the tex. You have never once shown me to be wrong on text. You make claims and post one or 2 verses that thats the problem. You take something out of context WITH THE ENTIRE BIBLE and say that we shoudl build around those 2 verses. That is the absolute worst way to do it. In the case of James 2, you disregard the entire flow of James in order to believe in something that some "Church of Christ" pastor told you to guilt u into being worried about yoru salvation. When I read a text I say hmm what does this word mean. So what do I do..I GO STRAIGHT TO THE GREEK for clarification. Some words dont translate well but you are to naive to realize that...I trust the greek over any translation and the fact that you dont loses a lot of credibility for you...

Yeah, I can tell bythe way these guys talk to you credibility is something I should be worried about.

[Mattnxtc]

Loismustdie, on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 2:12 AM, said:

Yeah, I can tell bythe way these guys talk to you credibility is something I should be worried about.

yeah...your right..my credibility isnt a problem, mainly b/c when I provide a line of reasoning, it is supported by evidence...

[Loismustdie]

Mattnxtc, on Wednesday, March 22nd, 2006, 7:28 AM, said:

yeah...your right..my credibility isnt a problem, mainly b/c when I provide a line of reasoning, it is supported by evidence...

Yeah, there always telling you that too. Lol.