57 replies to this topic

[crowTrobot]

moved over from a discussion started in DN's devotional thread -

this is a common misconception that people have when tryin to discuss free will. The say that if theres God there isnt free will and so on. Lets look at it more closely. Free will is the right to do what you will...Its common sense. So do we have it? Of course we do.

Now is God all knowing? Yes He is. So the common theory is that if he knows everything that is going to happen then we really dont have free will. Do you see though where this is wrong. Just b/c God knows something is goign to happen that doesnt mean that He is making it happen but merely knows. Thats why we have sin on the earth. God knows we will sin, He even knows when and how, but he allows it...why? b/c the only way we will learn is by doing it. As I said in another post, The only way we can truly love God is if we come to Him on our own free will

if our exact future CAN (by anyone or anything) be known it IS predetermined and we do not have free will to change it (whether god does or not). even if we feel like we do, the feeling would be necessarily illusionary. that is pretty straight forward logic shared by almost all philosophical approaches to the subject.

there is a lot of talk about predeterminism in the bible anyway, which is just another in a long line of logical contradictions within it.

You still make the decisions. Only, God already knows what you are going to decide to do...

that's a logical contradiction. if the future is predetermined there is no free will - our decisions are already determined when we get to them.

this is where quantum mechanics is kind of fun since it does allow free will - but even in principal, even by GOD, the likelyhood of outcomes of all future events can only be known by percentages (otherwise quantum mechanics is invalid - and it is the most accurately proved theory in the history of science).

if god exists and we have free will he can only know percentages of future outcomes. god is playing +/-EV for your soul.

[Mattnxtc]

moved over from a discussion started in DN's devotional thread -
if our exact future CAN (by anyone or anything) be known it IS predetermined and we do not have free will to change it (whether god does or not). even if we feel like we do, the feeling would be necessarily illusionary. that is pretty straight forward logic shared by almost all philosophical approaches to the subject.

there is a lot of talk about predeterminism in the bible anyway, which is just another in a long line of logical contradictions within it.
that's a logical contradiction. if the future is predetermined there is no free will - our decisions are already determined when we get to them.

this is where quantum mechanics is kind of fun since it does allow free will - but even in principal, even by GOD, the likelyhood of outcomes of all future events can only be known by percentages (otherwise quantum mechanics is invalid - and it is the most accurately proved theory in the history of science).

if god exists and we have free will he can only know percentages of future outcomes. god is playing +/-EV for your soul.

there is no contradiction. Just b/c He knows what your future is doesnt mean He is the one pulling the strings on you. You are making the choices that lead to that future not Him. He knows the future yes. But that means nothing in terms of you. You will make the choices. He knows what you will do but you will make the choices that gets you there

Think of it in terms of a poker game. Often both players can look at the game and see the same end game strategy. Now your opponent sees how its going to end but is he making you play those moves? Of course not but that doesnt mean the end game strategy isnt known.

[brvheart]

Ok, I actually respect you both a lot more now... thanks for moving this here...




Let the argument resume.





ps. On DN's thread I wasn't saying that the topic was mindless... I said that the ramblings and arguing were mindless.

[Loismustdie]

We all make our own choices. Nobody forces us to do anything. Nothing is predetermined.

That much is easy to see. Is God able to see it before you do?

Of course. So what? It changes nothing- you are still in control, you are still the pilot. Unless you are Tex Waters, then the devil is his captain.

That's a different issue though.

[Petoria]

We all make our own choices. Nobody forces us to do anything. Nothing is predetermined.

That much is easy to see. Is God able to see it before you do?

Of course. So what? It changes nothing- you are still in control, you are still the pilot. Unless you are Tex Waters, then the devil is his captain.

That's a different issue though.

Do you not see how having an action being known to 100% certainty before it happens infringes on free will?

[SilentSnow]

That much is easy to see. Is God able to see it before you do?

Of course. So what? It changes nothing

if something can be exactly predicted it changes everything.

this means that the event is entirely inevitable, and we are simply waiting for
something that absolutely must happen(ie be predetermined) to carry out.

you can spin it any way you want, but 100 percent knowledge of the future(by anyone, including God) absolutely eliminates any meaningful concept of free will.

and dont try to use the "God is outside of time" diversion- that makes no difference at all.


if some event can be predicted exactly, then that event must happen.
if an event must happen, then it cannot be said to be "free" in any way.

you must be able to demonstrate why one of the above 2 statements is false,
or God cant be omniscient, or we dont have free will.

[Mattnxtc]

if something can be exactly predicted it changes everything.

this means that the event is entirely inevitable, and we are simply waiting for
something that absolutely must happen(ie be predetermined) to carry out.

you can spin it any way you want, but 100 percent knowledge of the future(by anyone, including God) absolutely eliminates any meaningful concept of free will.

and dont try to use the "God is outside of time" diversion- that makes no difference at all.
if some event can be predicted exactly, then that event must happen.
if an event must happen, then it cannot be said to be "free" in any way.

you must be able to demonstrate why one of the above 2 statements is false,
or God cant be omniscient, or we dont have free will.

You also are tryin to compare apples to oranges. You cannot compare mans actions to Gods knowledge of what is to happen

God knows when and what events will happen...so what? Does He go around telling us them? Of course not. We dont have any knowledge of what is going to occur and we never have anyway of knowing what is going to happen. Therefore we are completely free in our decisions. We are completely free to make whatever decisions we want. God just knows where they will lead to. He isnt affecting them but he knows what will happen. You say this hinders free will but explain how. You are completely able to choose what you want but each choice will lead you to exactly where God knew you would be.

[Loismustdie]

Do you not see how having an action being known to 100% certainty before it happens infringes on free will?

No, because it doesn't it. The idea bothers some, but it effects no one.

[SilentSnow]

You also are tryin to compare apples to oranges. You cannot compare mans actions to Gods knowledge of what is to happen

God knows when and what events will happen...so what? Does He go around telling us them? Of course not. We dont have any knowledge of what is going to occur and we never have anyway of knowing what is going to happen. Therefore we are completely free in our decisions. We are completely free to make whatever decisions we want. God just knows where they will lead to. He isnt affecting them but he knows what will happen. You say this hinders free will but explain how. You are completely able to choose what you want but each choice will lead you to exactly where God knew you would be.

you arent quite getting it.
it does not matter at all if we personally know. it also does not matter at all if the entity that knows is causing something to happen.
the only thing that matters is that anyone, even if they are God, can know that an event will happen with certainty.

let me clarify one thing also-
"God just knows where they will lead to", but does not know what we will decide- ie God is not all knowing- this is fine
God also knows what we will decide- not fine, unless we dont have free will.
i dont know which one of these statements you are making here.

going back to my argument, anything that can be exactly predicted cannot be "free".

i dont know if this point can be made any clearer, and the fact that "free will" is an extremely poorly defined term does not help.

[brvheart]

if he already knows what's the point

The point is... free will. We need to choose. I've done a lot of work with kids and I can see in their faces when they are going to do something wrong, but how can I punish them before they do it? I can't.

[crowTrobot]

We all make our own choices. Nobody forces us to do anything. Nothing is predetermined.

then how can god know what we will do?

That much is easy to see. Is God able to see it before you do? Of course. So what? It changes nothing- you are still in control, you are still the pilot.

think of it like a path we are walking that forks (when we make our choices) - if the exact fork we will take is knowable BEFORE we get to it, how can we be "free" to take the other fork when we get there? as far as we are concerned if the fork we take is predetermined before we get there we are NOT free to choose which way we will go.

if god is able to see a decision we make before it happens (either because he is outside our time or because of his predictive powers or whatever) there must be something besides our free will that causes the decision to happen - something that predetermines the decision, such as prior environmental causes or other prior sequences of events outside our control which locks our future choice into place, which of course themselves would have to be predictable and not random.

anyway, this whole thing started because DN said god "has a purpose for all things", which implies that he does intervene and direct our lives - messing even further with the philosophical concept of free will.

The point is... free will. We need to choose. I've done a lot of work with kids and I can see in their faces when they are going to do something wrong, but how can I punish them before they do it? I can't.

not a good example because you can only predict what the kids will do AFTER they've already decided to do it, not before they decide.

[bigkg]

So lets say God knows I'm going to kill somebody tomorrow.

What if I don't?

[SilentSnow]

So lets say God knows I'm going to kill somebody tomorrow.

What if I don't?

then God didnt know.

maybe you can elaborate some, but i dont see this as a very interesting
question.


one point that is somewhat related is that "knowing" with certainty is impossible, at least for humans. even if something can be exactly predicted every time, all you can be sure of is that your predictions correlate with what happened 100 percent of the time. you still cant be certain that they will continue to do so.

so how can god be certain when humans cant? who knows?
i cant think of any conceivable way that any being could be absolutely certain.
however, since if in fact God did exist, it would be so far beyond human conception as to be inconceivable, then i cant really rule it out.

on a sidenote, this is one of the reasons why i dont believe in any major religion- any true God would be so far beyond human experience that any speculation about the attributes or motivations of that God would be useless.

[Mattnxtc]

So lets say God knows I'm going to kill somebody tomorrow.

What if I don't?

this really doesnt make sense at all. Since God isnt telling you what you will or will not do..by tryin to trick God you arent really doing anything

Now i know this isnt a perfect analogy but take the main idea of the movie Minority Report...more specifically using the girl since she was the best of them all...Now the basic theme is that events will happen that lead to the death of somebody and that its the polices job to stop that. But what the point was that we are inevitably leading down the path to that future event. If you recall...Tom Cruise only had the chance to change his future once he knew what it was and how to avoid it.

Now imagine this on the same level as God. He knows your events. He knows everything that will lead up to that event. But b/c He knows does it affect you in any way? Of course not. B/c you dont know what he knows you will make ur decisions that way. Now if God told you the future then just maybe you could change something. But sense you dont know you are destined to fulfill that. It will be all your choices that will lead to that outcome.

[SilentSnow]

But b/c He knows does it affect you in any way? Of course not. It will be all your choices that will lead to that outcome.

no, it does not affect you. but it does remove the possibility that you have free will.

"your choices" will just be an illusion- you are not really making choices, but simply fulfilling the deterministic path that has already been decided. that you "think" you are making choices is irrelevant.

i suppose i could keep making this point, but i dont think it will help any.

it isnt even a matter of "agreeing to disagree"

i get the feeling that you simply cant understand the point that we are trying to make.

[crowTrobot]

But what the point was that we are inevitably leading down the path to that future event.

how is inevitability compatable with free will? you're blatantly contradicting yourself.

Now imagine this on the same level as God. He knows your events. He knows everything that will lead up to that event. But b/c He knows does it affect you in any way? Of course not. B/c you dont know what he knows you will make ur decisions that way. Now if God told you the future then just maybe you could change something. But sense you dont know you are destined to fulfill that. It will be all your choices that will lead to that outcome.

the obvious implication is that the EVENTS cause us to make the choices we make, and our choices cannot be different unless the events change.

[Mattnxtc]

no, it does not affect you. but it does remove the possibility that you have free will.

"your choices" will just be an illusion- you are not really making choices, but simply fulfilling the deterministic path that has already been decided. that you "think" you are making choices is irrelevant.

i suppose i could keep making this point, but i dont think it will help any.

it isnt even a matter of "agreeing to disagree"

i get the feeling that you simply cant understand the point that we are trying to make.

No i understand your reasoning. That if the path is predetermined then we cant have free will....So for a second lets take God out. You make choices that lead you to a certain point. Each choice leads to a future event. Thats common sense. Free will tells us that we are able to make these choices...So we all agree that that is true

Now lets add in God. He sees all those exact choices you will make. That is all You still make them but he knows them. Were you affected in anyway? Of course not. You still make your choices irregardless of Him.

[crowTrobot]

Now lets add in God. He sees all those exact choices you will make. That is all You still make them but he knows them.

how?

if you are saying god can predict our choices then something besides free will (outside influences that he can detect) must be determining what we choose. that one is obvious.

if you are saying that god is outside time and can somehow "look back" on choices we made, then those choices must somehow be *fixed* and unchanging within our time (otherwise you end up with multiple realities). that one requires a little more thought, but it is still impossible to get around.

and irregardless isn't a word

[herokid7]

how?

if you are saying god can predict our choices then something besides free will (outside influences that he can detect) must be determining what we choose. that one is obvious.

if you are saying that god is outside time and can somehow "look back" on choices we made, then those choices must somehow be *fixed* and unchanging within our time (otherwise you end up with multiple realities).

and irregardless isn't a word

This is a hard subject to comprehend, so I try not to think about it(makes my head hurt.) But, my theory is this: Have you ever known someone so well, a girlfriend/boyfriend, family member, that you knew what they were going to do before they did it? I think most of us have. This is how God knows everything. He created us, so He knows us better than anybody has ever known anybody, so He always knows what we are going to do before we do it, there letting have our free will, but yet still being all-knowing.

[SilentSnow]

This is a hard subject to comprehend, so I try not to think about it(makes my head hurt.) But, my theory is this: Have you ever known someone so well, a girlfriend/boyfriend, family member, that you knew what they were going to do before they did it? I think most of us have. This is how God knows everything. He created us, so He knows us better than anybody has ever known anybody, so He always knows what we are going to do before we do it, there letting have our free will, but yet still being all-knowing.

knowing someone well is definitely not the same as knowing them exactly.

im not going to read through all the christian apologists, but im willing to bet that there are at least some that admit that God cant be all knowing.

i dont know why this is so hard to admit for some christians- God can still be the smartest and most knowledgable being in the universe if you want.

the other alternatives are having an irrational religion that wont convince anyone reasonable, or getting rid of the idea of free will(something that would pretty much gut christianity).