12 replies to this topic

[screech]

UTG is unknown. Judging by his limp, he's probably not good.

BB is a TAG.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with [8h], [8d].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) [2d], [6h], [6s] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero?

[Actuary]

raises

cheaper info

[MrNiceGuy]

Raises, calls, or folds? Are those my only choices? They all suck.....

If we raise, then if BB 3-bets, I guess we call and fold the turn UI? How confident can we be that BB won't 3-bet AK or AQ? He won't figure us for a 6 or a big pair, so he may 3-bet to try to knock us out...

We could raise and call down if the board stays safe, hoping BB raises with overs and UTG folds. I don't think UTG is likely to fold though.

Call and re-evaluate on the turn? I guess that's my answer, even though I don't like it.

I'll defer if everyone prefers raising, 'cause I'm really not sure.

[PoppinFresh]

R-r-r-raises

[screech]

So I called. I figured lack of protection, and I get to see the turn card cheaply. I could raise there and get a more accurate response. Plus he is likely to bet the turn with overs again on this nott-so-dangerous board, so I can choose to exploit my equity edge on teh larger streets.

Raising has its benefits too. As actuary pointed out, cheaper info. It may even be best in this situation.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with [8h], [8d].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) [2d], [6h], [6s] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) [7c] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG raises, Hero?

[Sysvr4]

I agree with MNG on the flop. I like just calling there since you can't protect your hand.

Turn is a fold.

Jeff

[Actuary]

I think we are usually behind on the flop and want to raise to see if he 3-bets and/or leads turn

easy fold now on turn

[screech]

Really? A fold?
Pot is pretty big, and I have no real reason to think I'm behind yet.

I considered all 3 options, and really didn't know what to do. Folding was definetly the safe route, but it felt like I was giving up too much. But I didn't really like raising or calling too much either.

When I get confused like this, I do what I always do. I called, and that usually ends up being the worst option. At the time, I was thinking that if BB had an overpair, that he may 3-bet, and I could get away from my hand for 1BB. That kind of thinking sucks.

Anyway, heres the conclusion:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with [8h], [8d].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.40 SB) [2d], [6h], [6s] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6.20 BB) [7c] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG raises, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (12.20 BB) [9c] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero?

[MrNiceGuy]

Really? A fold?
Pot is pretty big, and I have no real reason to think I'm behind yet.

Seems like a clear fold on the turn to me.

You don't know whether BB has overcards or an overpair, it's probably roughly 50-50 at this point. But UTG probably raises the flop with something like A2 or a small pair, meaning his most likely hands are either something that flopped or turned big (A6, 22, 77, 66), a slowplayed AA, or a stone bluff with random overcards that he didn't raise preflop yet. That seems like a lot of heat to take to try a bluff like that on the turn. And even if you are ahead of both opponents (seems extremely unlikely), you could still get outdrawn. Raising could be considered, but if UTG is crazy enough to be bluffing here, how do you know he wouldn't bluff-cap?

I think the river is the same story; BB's turn call and UTG's persistence further suggests you are behind, and I think it's a fold (although it's less clear than on the turn, since the pot is so big now, and the price is only 1 BB). Again, you could try raising, but I don't think it's worth the expense.

[screech]

Seems like a clear fold on the turn to me.

You don't know whether BB has overcards or an overpair, it's probably roughly 50-50 at this point. But UTG probably raises the flop with something like A2 or a small pair, meaning his most likely hands are either something that flopped or turned big (A6, 22, 77, 66), a slowplayed AA, or a stone bluff with random overcards that he didn't raise preflop yet. That seems like a lot of heat to take to try a bluff like that on the turn. And even if you are ahead of both opponents (seems extremely unlikely), you could still get outdrawn. Raising could be considered, but if UTG is crazy enough to be bluffing here, how do you know he wouldn't bluff-cap?

I think the river is the same story; BB's turn call and UTG's persistence further suggests you are behind, and I think it's a fold (although it's less clear than on the turn, since the pot is so big now, and the price is only 1 BB). Again, you could try raising, but I don't think it's worth the expense.

I agree that BB has an overpair roughly 50% of the time.

So how often do you think I'm ahead of UTG? I think quite a bit, since it's rare for players to limp UTG in SH games with big hands. Maybe 2 combos of AA-99 discounted.

77 and 66 are possible. But there are so many more hands that I'm ahead of.

I would guess I'm ahead of UTG roughly 50% of the time as well. That means my equity in the pot is between 20-25%. So it's pretty close.

Like I said, I think calling was my worst option. I ****ed that up. Folding's not bad. It's safe. But the more I think about this, the more I think it's a clear 3-bet on the turn. That puts BB to the test, and he would probably fold all but his very best pp's, and will occassionally fold them. It also prevents him from calling and spiking an overcard.

[PoppinFresh]

Isn't this turn situation exactly why it's better to raise the flop? Now you're facing a bet and a raise and you have no idea where you are in the hand. 3-betting might be right here but you're also losing way more than you should if you get action from a better hand.

As is I would probably fold on the turn, UTG limping/calling 2 cold would tend to make me think that's he's a loose/passive player(not reliable, but we have no read), which would mean that we're most likely behind. We also still have BB to worry about.

[screech]

Isn't this turn situation exactly why it's better to raise the flop? Now you're facing a bet and a raise and you have no idea where you are in the hand. 3-betting might be right here but you're also losing way more than you should if you get action from a better hand.

Yeah, you might be right.

Honestly, I have no idea.

As is I would probably fold on the turn, UTG limping/calling 2 cold would tend to make me think that's he's a loose/passive player(not reliable, but we have no read), which would mean that we're most likely behind. We also still have BB to worry about.

I don't think his limp/call indicates he's passive at all. I think it means he's loose. After he raises the turn, I think there's a better chance that he's loose-aggressive because of the raise, and because LA players outnumber LP players in these games.

[WestcoastCanuck]

You have to raise this flop, IMO. Raising the turn may give you more accurate information, raising the flop definatly gives you cheaper information.

Raising the flop allows you to (usually) take control of the betting. Instead of facing 2 cold on the turn, you will usually be checked to.