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Ps 180 Person $20 Sngs


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#41 strategy

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 02:21 PM

View Postthrowemaway, on Wednesday, March 29th, 2006, 12:52 PM, said:

First off, fabolous posts you guys..This is all great stuff, especially from Bizzle and Rrinn..I do have a question though.. What does your bankroll need/should be at approximately to be playing these?Thanks in advance
I think 50 buyins ($1100) would be more than enough. You might be able to get away with keeping less on hand, but it never hurts to be overbankrolled.
QUOTE (ShakeZuma @ Wednesday, November 2nd, 2011, 4:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
seriously though, with that grammar it's really like, I mean it doesn't bother me as much that she gets beat, you know?


#42 therrinn

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 03:10 PM

As strategy said, 50 buyins should be a pretty safe and comfortable amount, though more never hurts. My first hour strategy, where I'm very willing to go all the way with any premium hand, does mean that its possible to go through a couple tourneys where you're not going to make it past the first hour or two, so its important to have enough of a bankroll behind you to be able to continue to play what I consider the optimal strategy. That said, even if it takes a while before you start winning 1st place consistently, you should be getting deep regularly enough that a bankroll of even 800 or so probably wouldn't come under serious threat.

#43 anselm

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 04:32 AM

Ok experts help me out. This thread got me to a) deposit on PokerStars b) start playing these 180's like a mad mofo. I'm looking for feedback on my stats. I feel like I've just been through a very rough patch (on 180's and elsewhere) so I think figures are a little lower than I hoped but perhaps someone can help me. Out of 58 of these $22's...1st: 23rd: 36th: 19th: 110-18th: 5No cashes: 46ROI: 264%ITM: 22%Obviously sample size means these figures aren't really indicative of my skill level whether good or bad, I'm just curious whether I'm on track or what. Also, I'm really tight player overall but am working on tightening up even more in the early levels. What hands don't you play early on that might surprise some?
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#44 therrinn

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Posted 05 April 2006 - 04:42 AM

Anselm...sorry I didn't reply to your pm earlier, got caught up in stuff and completely forgot. As for your results, they look great to me! You're hitting the final table with a very high percentage (12% as opposed to the 5% that would be expected if everyone was equally skilled) and your ft finishes indicate a strong shorthanded game. If you can sustain results like that over the long term, you'll be building the bankroll awfully quick.

#45 anselm

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 02:56 PM

View Posttherrinn, on Wednesday, April 5th, 2006, 8:42 AM, said:

...as opposed to the 5% that would be expected if everyone was equally skilled...
Eh what's this? I'm not familiar with this statistic, could you explain?Also, I have played in two of these 180's with you. One I busted right as you were seated at my table and the other one was just now but we were never at the same table (though I was with pearljam1012 for a long while). I donked off in 35th when I was forced to push with AJ and couldn't crush the almighty KTo (I understand his call, KT is a tough laydown).
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#46 therrinn

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 03:02 PM

View Postanselm, on Thursday, April 6th, 2006, 5:56 PM, said:

Eh what's this? I'm not familiar with this statistic, could you explain?Also, I have played in two of these 180's with you. One I busted right as you were seated at my table and the other one was just now but we were never at the same table (though I was with pearljam1012 for a long while). I donked off in 35th when I was forced to push with AJ and couldn't crush the almighty KTo (I understand his call, KT is a tough laydown).
Hehe, was a roller coaster of a tourney for me. Built up a decent stack, lost a coinflip, built back, AK ran into a semi-shortie's KK, sucked out when my AQ hit a Q on the flop to build back up, then went completely card dead until losing with A9 vs 44 when I flopped the flush draw + overs. As for the 5% - Given that there are 180 people and 9 people make it to the final table, if everyone was equally skilled we'd expect a mean final table achievement rate of 5%...unless my math/logic is messed up and I now look like a retard.

#47 STYLINHAWYN

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Posted 06 April 2006 - 04:30 PM

you should change the title of this thread to "TROH pt. 1" (therinn on hold'em part 1) :club: Great post, I added this page to my firefox favorites toolbar and will definatelly be referring to it often when playing. these sng's are money, cashed in a bunch over the last month, but have been going though a major funk these past couple of weeks, losing a lot of key races/dominated hands, in crucial situations.But i wanted to ask you about playing the huge monster stack at the FT. often times I make it to the final table the chip leader and find a way to blow it all and bust in 7th place. whats your strategy specifcally for playing the chipleader? bullying, blind stealing, defending blinds, hands to play, overall goal, etc...again, thx for the great post

#48 Mercury69

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 05:50 AM

Excellent post, sir. Thank you for your wisdom.
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#49 Bizzle

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 06:18 AM

View PostSTYLINHAWYN, on Thursday, April 6th, 2006, 8:30 PM, said:

you should change the title of this thread to "TROH pt. 1" (therinn on hold'em part 1) :club:
I feel left out.:sad face:

Quote

Great post, I added this page to my firefox favorites toolbar and will definatelly be referring to it often when playing. these sng's are money, cashed in a bunch over the last month, but have been going though a major funk these past couple of weeks, losing a lot of key races/dominated hands, in crucial situations.But i wanted to ask you about playing the huge monster stack at the FT. often times I make it to the final table the chip leader and find a way to blow it all and bust in 7th place. whats your strategy specifcally for playing the chipleader? bullying, blind stealing, defending blinds, hands to play, overall goal, etc...again, thx for the great post
I'll step in here, but I will send this question to therrinn as well to ensure that he gets his say on it.Basically...if you have the big stack going in, you have literally no reason to get involved too early. Remember, the big money is in the top 3 places (well, for me third place, but whatever). You are going to be coming in just having finished playing 5 or 6 handed for an extended period of time, so you need to tighten up. The advantage the big stack provides is an ability to be very patient and observe the table. Odds are if you have this size stack, you have been beating up the shorthanded tables-take the call equity that you have acquired and put it to use. Don't be flying over the top of people with weak hands just because you have a big stack and feel like they will fold. If you have 40k going in (table has 270k total) and you have 40k when it gets to 5 handed (average is 54k) you are probably still fine, and 4 other people are gone. Play the FT with a big stack like it is a sit-n-go, tight early, and then get into your normal shorthanded game later.
QUOTE(JSHamm @ Monday, October 23rd, 2006, 2:03 PM) View Post
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#50 therrinn

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 08:31 AM

View PostBizzle, on Friday, April 7th, 2006, 9:18 AM, said:

I feel left out.:sad face:I'll step in here, but I will send this question to therrinn as well to ensure that he gets his say on it.Basically...if you have the big stack going in, you have literally no reason to get involved too early. Remember, the big money is in the top 3 places (well, for me third place, but whatever). You are going to be coming in just having finished playing 5 or 6 handed for an extended period of time, so you need to tighten up. The advantage the big stack provides is an ability to be very patient and observe the table. Odds are if you have this size stack, you have been beating up the shorthanded tables-take the call equity that you have acquired and put it to use. Don't be flying over the top of people with weak hands just because you have a big stack and feel like they will fold. If you have 40k going in (table has 270k total) and you have 40k when it gets to 5 handed (average is 54k) you are probably still fine, and 4 other people are gone. Play the FT with a big stack like it is a sit-n-go, tight early, and then get into your normal shorthanded game later.
Bizzle nailed it head on right there. If you have the monster stack, you have very little reason to go trying to buy blinds. People will have stacks in the 10-20k range and those people will be forced to push over the top of your raise with just about any good hand, and at that point you'll often be getting the odds to call. The problem is that just one loss like that can easily take you out of monster stack territory and back into medium stack territory. The other thing is that people will generally be less willing to attack your blind since you can afford to defend it more easily than everyone else. Remember, just because you have the big stack does not mean that its your responsibility to bust every single person at the table. You having the big stack does mean that you can call shortie's all ins with a slightly wider range than some of the other players, but you shouldn't be too liberal with your calling range. You have plenty of chips relative to the blinds - you have the luxury of being able to be more patient for better cards than everyone else. As Bizzle said, the real money is in the top 3 - invariably when it gets down to 5 or 4 handed there is one person with a big stack, probably around 100k, a couple in the 50kish range, and then one or two smaller stacks. If you have 50k at that point you're in excellent shape. If you can be the one with the 100k, that's great, but the marginal utility from having the 100k over the 50k is less than the marginal disutility from having the 20k stack instead of the 50k. (The main reason I say that is because people suck shorthanded and I really don't worry about going into the 3-handed session a bit behind the chip leader). That means that if the opportunity arises to get chips, take it. Don't try to force things to happen just because you're the chip leader and feel like you should be trying to bully the table.

#51 strategy

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Posted 07 April 2006 - 08:57 AM

View Posttherrinn, on Friday, April 7th, 2006, 8:31 AM, said:

Don't try to force things to happen just because you're the chip leader and feel like you should be trying to bully the table.
This was the mistake I made in the tournament I've been posting. I went into the last few tables with the intention of trying out a new, laggy style of play. I gambled my way into a huge stack and didn't stop chopping away. I took some stupid risks and went overboard. I was lucky not to get snapped off by the others that could have hurt me while we were still in the small money.The idea of bullying the table is way overblown, IMO. You don't see people murdering tables like Stu Ungar did back in the 80s and 90s.
QUOTE (ShakeZuma @ Wednesday, November 2nd, 2011, 4:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
seriously though, with that grammar it's really like, I mean it doesn't bother me as much that she gets beat, you know?


#52 therrinn

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 10:35 AM

View Poststrategy, on Friday, April 7th, 2006, 11:57 AM, said:

This was the mistake I made in the tournament I've been posting. I went into the last few tables with the intention of trying out a new, laggy style of play. I gambled my way into a huge stack and didn't stop chopping away. I took some stupid risks and went overboard. I was lucky not to get snapped off by the others that could have hurt me while we were still in the small money.The idea of bullying the table is way overblown, IMO. You don't see people murdering tables like Stu Ungar did back in the 80s and 90s.
I was listening to a final table preview on the circuit (which, as Bizzle pointed out, is infinitely better with Joe and Gavin). They were talking about how they expected Greenstein to be raising lots of pots and bullying the table, so I spent some time thinking about this.I think maybe the problem is the difference in buyin. I just honestly don't see a lot of 'scared' play at this level. The 50 or whatever bucks between two spots on the payout ladder isn't enough to make people fold, whereas I can definitely see how a difference of 200k would scare people. I think its a lot harder to bully a ft without a serious differentiation between payouts. The other element is that it's pretty widely accepted that online you should bluff less and call more, given that people have a propensity to bluff you more and call you down more. Given that propensity to bluff and call, it seems to make sense that 'bullying' probably is a better strategy for live play than online. Finally, most of the stories I read about those bullying tables (like Stu Ungar as Strategy pointed out) were from the past. I think that players are in general more aggressive and have a better understanding of when they have to stand up to a bully then they did in previous decades.The other option is that maybe I just suck at being a bully, but honestly, I try to live by the theory that you should play the opposite of how others are - since most final tables I'm at are crazy loose-aggressive, I'm going to play tight assuming my chip stack allows it. I just don't think that these relatively small buyin online tournaments are the time when you should try to be the bully.

#53 anselm

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 10:45 AM

Part of having a big stack and being bully is having fold equity. This is almost a joke in low buy-in tourneys online. Against smart people, re-raising them all when they hold a paltry KQo really puts them to the test. On these 180's that's an insta-call and a skeet in the pants. This is fantastic when you have an awesome hand (dominated, overpair, etc) but the fact is that sometimes to stay alive you have to make moves and can't fold for 221 hands til you get aces. Making moves means getting your opponents to fold. Good luck with that happening in a $22.
"Many girls want to be carnal with me because I am such a premium dancer."

"It's easier to be a people person when you flop straights." -Gabe Kaplan

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#54 anselm

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Posted 11 April 2006 - 03:29 PM

Well the good news is that I cracked my cold streak by finishing 4th in a $22 180.The bad news is I busted when my AKs couldn't hold up to a re-raise all-in by the mighty K5d. Hits a 5 to make me choke, then a flush to make me vomit. Thanks for rubbing it in. I'm so pissed I can't even explain it. That tourney was mine, easily. $1k makes up for a week of bad beats quite nicely.Yah I know bad beat forum wah wah just let me ***** for a sec... there now I'm done.
"Many girls want to be carnal with me because I am such a premium dancer."

"It's easier to be a people person when you flop straights." -Gabe Kaplan

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#55 zoo

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Posted 14 April 2006 - 11:53 PM

Thanks a ton for this guide guys. I tried playing a couple of these sngs when they first started but had no success. After reading your posts, I thouhgt I would give it another shot. First time I finished 17th (would have gone higher except I got knocked down severly when I tried too hard with AK against the chip leader who hit 4 runners to make a flush). Second time I finished 3rd. I will definitely be playing more of these now that I have a better idea of what it takes to finish deep. Thanks again.

#56 anselm

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Posted 16 April 2006 - 04:59 PM

Just fyi, fwiw, etc...At 1st break: 70-ish remainAt 2nd break: 20-ish remainFinal table: 40 or so minutes after 2nd breakMy experiences, anybody get wildly different numbers?
"Many girls want to be carnal with me because I am such a premium dancer."

"It's easier to be a people person when you flop straights." -Gabe Kaplan

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#57 Bizzle

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Posted 16 April 2006 - 10:09 PM

View Postanselm, on Sunday, April 16th, 2006, 8:59 PM, said:

Just fyi, fwiw, etc...At 1st break: 70-ish remainAt 2nd break: 20-ish remainFinal table: 40 or so minutes after 2nd breakMy experiences, anybody get wildly different numbers?
Not wildly different-second break is typically mid 20s. FT can be anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour after the second break.
QUOTE(JSHamm @ Monday, October 23rd, 2006, 2:03 PM) View Post
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#58 Alex916F

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Posted 16 April 2006 - 11:08 PM

Hey thanks for the strat guide it is great.I am in a cheapo 4 dollar 180 man sitting w/ 31k at the second break 21 one ppl left. Looks like I may be in a posistion to take it down. I put my money in horribly right at the beginning when i thought a guy was making a play and I was in the BB w/ A8 in a 6 way limped pot flop came A high with rags I bet out and the guy jammed. I called he had AJ i caught an 8 on the turn. I have definatley been running good and my table image is really TAG so I am able to steel effectively and I dont get much resistance when I show aggression.Rail if you wand tourny 2321855 not at the FT yet thoughsn: Alex916F
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#59 Alex916F

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Posted 17 April 2006 - 12:44 AM

I got first!!! thats my best finish in a field that large. wooohooo may be low stakes but i am happy. Thanks for the break down of the 180 mans therinn I thought the most helpful thing was knowing where my chip stack needed to be at certain points in the tourny. I put all my money in bad near the beginning of the tourny but after that it was smooth sailing. I really didnt think i was getting smacked in the face with the deckeither, just getting great action on my hands that were the best.previously i went out in these tournies because i tried an ill fated move such as a position call when i just didnt have the stack to make the call or check raising on a stone cold bluff because i thought i read a guy for weakness but was wrong.This tourny I made two moves beside the obligatory blind steel ever so often. The moves were pretty much continuation bets or a c/r to test the guy if he truly was strong.I showed down some monster hands when the field started narrowing quite a bit, when I took the chip lead with about 27 ppl to go. I found after that nobody wanted to mess with me. They would give me walks or really believe my continuation bets. well... yeaahhh I am excited about this win, i have been running so bad this past week but it ended at least for the night.
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#60 Swift_Psycho

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Posted 17 April 2006 - 06:18 AM

View PostAlex916F, on Monday, April 17th, 2006, 4:44 AM, said:

I got first!!!
Congrats man, sounds awesome.




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