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#21 zipper

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 09:51 AM

I am curious as to your expected percentage of finishes in the 180's:Cashfinal table3rd2nd 1st

#22 therrinn

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 11:05 AM

My results over the last 30 days:Total number played: 1071st: 53rd: 15th: 36th: 27th: 29th: 110-18: 5No cash: 88It's been a good month. My FT percentage is usually closer to 10% rather than the 13% here, but since I've started playing these my lowest FT percentage in a month was 8%. My 10-18 percentage this month is actually higher than usual - Most of the time I often bust before the bubble or go very deepActually, what is also surprising to me is the conversion rate at headsup for this month. Though in retrospect, I remember going into headsup with pretty big chip leads. I also played against some people who were even worse at headsup than I am - and trust me, that takes real talent. For the record, I do much much worse in other MTTs. I'm not really playing the cards in the 180s after the first hour - I play stack sizes, blinds, and tendencies, and that's where I get my consistency from. I need to figure out a way to start applying some of the same concepts I do in 180s to tournaments with bigger fields, which means I really need to start playing more of them.

#23 anselm

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 11:17 AM

View Posttherrinn, on Monday, March 13th, 2006, 2:05 PM, said:

I'm not really playing the cards in the 180s after the first hour - I play stack sizes, blinds, and tendencies, and that's where I get my consistency from.
This is exactly why game selection is so important. If you're consistently playing the same thing you eventually find a rhythm and a groove so that you're essentially playing by "feel." The counter-intuitive side of that is that your "feel" has been sharply honed by practice and learned skills - not all gut no brain. FWIW, I think it's very telling that in the last 30 days you haven't placed 2nd and for that I'll give you major props.
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#24 copernicus

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 01:24 PM

View Postanselm, on Monday, March 13th, 2006, 2:17 PM, said:

This is exactly why game selection is so important. If you're consistently playing the same thing you eventually find a rhythm and a groove so that you're essentially playing by "feel." The counter-intuitive side of that is that your "feel" has been sharply honed by practice and learned skills - not all gut no brain. FWIW, I think it's very telling that in the last 30 days you haven't placed 2nd and for that I'll give you major props.
Thats only because Bizzle wasnt in any of them.I started out very strong in 180s, but then I started playing a lot of rebuys (mostly $11$ for a $540 seat entry) and making a ton of TCs. Since I went back to 180s last week I am having a lot of trouble tightening up. I need to cover up the LAG button on my comp.Outstanding results on the 1sts!
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#25 Mashchit

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 03:32 PM

Great thread therrinn and if I ever get more than an hour and a half to call my own I'll try the 180 again and follow your advice.Plust that's an interesting point about doing well in tourneys with those number of entrants, but struggling with bigger fields. I don't have a track record anyway as good as yours, but my results certainly dip drastically once the field gets above 250/300.

#26 Bizzle

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 09:13 AM

Time for Bizzle's contribution to the thread.

View Posttherrinn, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 10:36 AM, said:

1) Playing for third, as that is as far as I can get.
FYP.

View Posttherrinn, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 10:36 AM, said:

The first hour:The first hour I play with a very tight starting hand selection. I will play AA/KK/QQ/AK extremely hard. My rule is to never fold these preflop in a 180. I will raise or if there's already a raise before me, I will jam preflop with any of these hands. You will get called so often by much worse hands (AQ/AJ, 77) that it is a very profitable play, particularly with AK. Assuming I see a flop, I play the premium pairs as if they were the nuts - if someone outflopped me and actually does have 2 pair or a set, so be it, I will go jump into the next SNG. Naturally there are limitations to this (I'm not saying jam QQ against a bet and a call on a Ace-high board), but the general principle holds. With the structure the way it is and the players as bad as they are, you simply have to have faith that your premium hands will hold and double you up.During the 10/20 and 15/30 levels I tend to like to raise to (5 + number of limpers)*bb. During the 25/50 level I tend to switch to (4 + number o limpers)*bb. Beyond that I switch to 3bb raises, adjusted for the number of limpers ahead of me. If I make a raise with AQ/AJ and hit the A, I'm pretty much treating it like I had AK, as I willl very often get action from A2-9. With pps I like to try to see cheap flops and hit a set, as the chances of being paid off if the other person hit anything whatsoever are very high. By the end of the first hour there are usually between 70-80 people remaining, with an average stack somewhere just short of 3.5k. If I have doubled up to 3k, I'm generally quite happy as I should be able to work with that at the 75/150 and 100/200 levels. Ideally I like to have 4k-5k (higher is of course great but not very feasible on a regular basis).
First hour raises-10-20 (100+20*number of limpers), (80+20*number of limpers with AA, KK, and QQ). Jam point is 600.15-30 (150+30*number of limpers), (120+30*number of limpers with AA, KK, and QQ). Jam point is 750.25-50 (250+50*number of limpers in EP), (200+50*number of limpers in LP). Jam point is 800.50-100 (400+100*number of limpers in EP), (300+100*number of limpers in LP). Jam point is 1200.Positions-EP 99+, AQ, AK.MP 88+, AJ+.LP 77+, KJ+, A9+.Note: Raises behind limpers requires the EP range.Other notes: in the 10-20 and 15-30 levels, I will call any raise under 10% of my stack with small pocket pairs. I will not open limp pocket pairs-I will either be raising or folding. I will limp behind with pocket pairs. I never ever ever open limp. I will limp with suited connectors and suited one gappers, but never call a raise with them. I do not limp suited aces.Seriously, in the first hour, play ABC. Stealing blinds is worthless until the 50-100 level, and even at that point, you have to be real short to steal. The goal is to play one or two big hands the first hour, get your money in real good, and other than that avoid the craziness that occurs.

View Posttherrinn, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 10:36 AM, said:

The Second Hour:The second hour is the hour where I feel like my advantage over the competition is the greatest. It is the reason that I'm willing to push my premium hands so hard during the first hour - I know that if I can get that one double up, I'll be in great shape to make a run and go deep by exploiting the poor play during the second hour. The reason that I feel like I have such an advantage is simply that people haven't read their HoH. Very few people seem to have an understanding of M, or know which hands to play against which sized stacks, or when and whom to bluff.One key aspect to remember is that the blinds actually increase very slowly in the second hour. You have levels of 75/150, 100/200, 25/100/200, and 25/200/400. Your 3 or 4k will last you quite a while at those blinds, so you really do actually have time to wait for a good hand. Also, do not worry about developing a tight table image and not getting action. The chances that people are paying attention to anything but their own two cards are tiny. Depending on my stack size and villain's stack size, I'm willing to call moderate raises with pocket pairs and suited connectors hoping to break someone if they have enough chips behind them to make it worthwhile. When smaller stacks are involved, naturally preflop rank is my primary criterion for whether to play a hand. One thing that's increidbly important to note is that people bluff A LOT during this hour. I often find it better to just call until the river, letting the other guy do the betting for me since he will so often gladly oblige where he wouldn't normally be calling. By the time that you get to the end of the second hour, there could be anywhere from 35-20 people left in the tournament, and you're going to want a stack of at least 8k to feel comfortable, but I prefer to aim high and get 10k+ so that I have room to manouever with 2 and 3 tables left. Tendencies to exploit in the second hour:1) People constantly check-raise all in with nothing but a flush draw. Naturally not all people do this, but it is a very very common tactic in these 180s.2) People will call bets that are far too large with a draw, whether straight or flush. Feel free to toss in pot sized bets in order to make them way over-pay for their draw.3) People with Ms less than 10 are playing a far too wide variety of hands. Feel free to call their preflop raises not so much for the implied odds but because their short stacked desperation leads them to make horrible desperate plays on the flop which you can easily exploit if you catch any piece of it.
In the second hour, stack theory rules the day. I will cover all 6 stacksizes/blinds for the second hour, as well as other second hour strategy. Literally, the second hour (and first half of the third hour) decides how deep you will go in the tourney. If you need help with FT play at these...go read a sit-n-go guide.Big stack, 75-150, 100-200, 100-200-25 levels. (Stack>6k)-Play TAG. Look to take flips against short stacks. Raise requirements stay the same as above (same as the 50-100 level, basically). Typically in these levels, I raise 4* in EP, 3* in LP (exception is 100-200-25-I raise to 800 regardless).My goal during this time period with this type of stack is to avoid anyone larger than me without a real hand (unless they are a maniac). I will prey on the smaller stacks. Still, stealing 225 or 300 when your stack is 8k just doesn't do you a ton of good. Take this time period to identify the tightest player at the table. Odds are, he is also the second best player at the table, or he is just getting crappy cards. You will need this information for later. As long as you are truly playing tight, he will take notice of the fact that you have been playing quite tight.Medium stack, 75-150, 100-200, 100-200-25 levels. (2500<Stack<6k)-This is actually the type of stack I like, due to the fact that it is the easiest and most involving to play. Once again-you are not looking for massive hands and quick doubleups to get yourself to the next levels. Preflop raises stay the same as when you have a big stack. The play I focus more on though, is rather than stealing blinds at this level, I prefer to snap off blatant steals once or twice instead. This will help increase your reputation as someone who pushes with good hands and is generally tight, which is key. Continue to watch the other players-odds are you won't get moved around a ton these levels, and note the tighest players at the table. Short stack, 75-150, 100-200, 100-200-25 levels. (2500>Stack)-You do not have any time to be patient, and you need to chip up at some point. You can survive well enough with 2k chips at any point in these levels, but when you hit 200-400, even 3k just will not cut it. The only time I wouldn't jam with any of these stacks is if blinds are 75-150 and you have over 2k, and even then it still isn't a terrible play. Look for situations where your fold equity is good, but you can still pick up a decent number of chips-behind limpers or minraisers is often a good time to jam small PPs or broadways.The tourney really makes a transition at the 100-200-25 level, when going to the 200-400-25 level. Adjusting to this is the key to going deep in these.Big stack, 200-400-25 level (Stack>8k)-Hopefully, you have figured out who that tightest player is. Literally steal EVERY one of his big blinds this level (odds are there are 2 or 3). This extra 1600-2400 chips that you will get will greatly increase your chances of winning. Ideally, in the last two levels I had a good stack, so I would be raising once every 1-2 rounds or so. Now, I am willing to raise twice a round. Identify the better players, and attack their blinds. Crappy players protect their blinds by calling raises. Ok/good players don't protect their blinds. Great players snap you off from the blinds. Not too many of the third category ever play in the 180s. One steal at this level is equal to a steal at the 100-200 and the 100-200-25 level combined...build some fold equity then, and cash it in now.Medium stack, 200-400-25 level (4k<Stack<8k)-Once again, a stack I enjoy playing. Like I said with the big stack, attack the weakest player's blinds. However, when involving with anyone else...do not play a hand you are not willing to play for your whole stack. I will play looser with a 5k stack here than with a 3k stack at the 100-200 level, due to the fact that this is the time to gear up. Especially if you have been tight earlier, it is easy to race your way to a decent stack that will be able to make a nice run into the top 18, at which point anything is possible.Small stack, 200-400-25 level (4k>Stack)-Remember that weakest player I keep talking about? Especially if you are in mid to late position-jam his BB every round if it is folded to you. Look for other jamming opportunities. One key to this is to not let the cards affect your decision-if you are CO-1 with 3200 and you decide before the deal that you will jam if it folds to you because the blinds are weak, don't fold when you look down at 57o. You really do not have a lot of leeway, and at this level it is possible to chip up quickly if you stay selectively aggressive. Sure, sometimes you will look retarded when you jam with 84o in LP and KK calls behind you...just remember that if he had KQ, he might fold. Do NOT let yourself start the level with a low stack and end the level with a low stack.

View Posttherrinn, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 10:36 AM, said:

Beyond the Second Hour:The blinds start to increase very fast, quickly becoming an important factor for all but the biggest stacks. Having a big stack during this point where the people with stacks of 5-10k are becoming desperate is tremendously +EV since you can be completely willing to take coinflips for only a portion of your stack. There really isn't much of a bubble effect in most of these, since the bubble is relatively meaningless. There are occasional exceptions, but few and far between.Once I get to the final two tables, my goal is to accumulate a minimum of 25k chips to head into the FT with. Obviously more is better. But the FT usually starts with blinds somewhere like 600/1200, and there are usually 2-3 people with short stacks of 10k or sok, a few people in the 20-35 range, and usually one or 2 big stacks in the 50k range. With a stack of 25k going in, you have enough chips that you're not forced to make a move early, and yet enough that you're a threat to everyone and can gamble on a coinflip or marginal situation against a shortie without eliminating yourself. I generally start out playing the final table very tight. The reason for this is simple - we've just been playing for a while at two short-handed tables. Many people were correctly playing a much wider range of hands 5 or 6-handed then they should at a full table. However, the quick change back to a full table and the excitement of being at the FT usually catches them off guard, and some people are liable to not switch gears back down into a more selective preflop strategy. After one or two orbits, most likely one or two people will be out, and this is where I like to go into steal mode, raising preflop an average of 2x per orbit if the situation allows. Again, with these raises I'm really not playing my cards - just the sizes of the stacks around me and their tendencies. I will not call reraises or all-ins with marginal hands like low pps or AJ-A2 (AQ depends on the person). I will call with AK every time, and QQ-AA every time. If I do find myself short-stacked at the final table, I find myself stop-and-going like a madman. I've found it to be an incredibly effective strategy for rebuilding my stack if I get down to the 10kish range. That doesn't mean I become reckless or start targetting the wrong stacks - 10k is still very respectable and you are one double up away from being in serious contention again.By the time it gets down to 4 people, I hope to have some solid reads against my opponents. I'll still be aggressive preflop, but I'll probably mix up how often I'm raising every couple of orbits so as not too become too predictable. Most importantly, I'm going to play the opposite style that my opponents are. If they're weak-tight, I'll be raising lots preflop and bluffing frequently. If they're crazy aggressive (and there usually is at least one) I'll try to set a trap out of a blind and cripple their stack in one key hand. Against some players you're going to need a very big hand, against others tptk is a candidate for going all in. Play the people, not the cards. One major tendency people have is to overplay their small pairs preflop. Usually a tell-tell sign of this is the overly large preflop raise or reraise. There are times like that when you're just going to have to put faith in your read and call off your stack with a hand like 99 or TT. The most important thing when shorthanded is to simply be aware of other people's patterns and the patterns that you are exhibiting. Have you raised 5 times in a row on the button? Well, if you get a monster on the button, go ahead and raise again and hope that you'll get played back at by someone tired of your bullying. Another play I'm a big fan of is just completing the sb and then folding to aggression. If I can develop a pattern of that in villain's mind, it then becomes easy for me to set a trap when I actually have a good holding in that position. I just try to be as aware as possible of the patterns that are forming and how aware I think that my opponents are of what is going on. I won't really comment on heads-up, as that is the area of play where I am weakest. If I come in even in chips and have respect for my opponent, I'll often make a deal to chop. If I come in ahead or my opponent doesn't really strike fear in my heart, I'll play it out and try to get the 1.08k first place payday.
Seriously, the rest of this advice is tremendous. Continue to stay selectively agressive and identify the weakest blind at the table. Reraises are more profitable than raises, so look for opportunities where you are fairly confident that the opponent has a crapola hand and is raising because he feels like he can steal the blinds, and come over the top of him.Seriously awesome guide therrinn, hope we can contribute more to it over time.
QUOTE(JSHamm @ Monday, October 23rd, 2006, 2:03 PM) View Post
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#27 therrinn

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 09:24 AM

View PostBizzle, on Tuesday, March 14th, 2006, 11:13 AM, said:

Positions-Any position: KQo. This hand cannot lose. Ever.EP 99+, AQ, AK.MP 88+, AJ+.LP 77+, KJ+, A9+.Note: Raises behind limpers requires the EP range.
FYP

#28 Swift_Psycho

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 09:37 AM

Great post. Thanks a lot.

#29 copernicus

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 10:54 AM

[quote name='therrinn' date='Tuesday, March 14th, 2006, 12:24 PM' post='899060'][quote]Positions-Any position: fold KQo. This hand is dominated, ALWAYS.EP 99+, AQ, AK.MP 88+, AJ+.LP 77+, KJ+, A9+.Note: Raises behind limpers requires the EP range. [/q]FYP[/quote]FYF :club: Seriously tho, I hate KQ from EP. It is often behind on a coinflip and frequently dominated by AK and AQ. Im also not thrilled calling with it even with position.
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#30 Bizzle

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 10:59 AM

View Postcopernicus, on Tuesday, March 14th, 2006, 1:54 PM, said:

FYF :club: Seriously tho, I hate KQ from EP. It is often behind on a coinflip and frequently dominated by AK and AQ. Im also not thrilled calling with it even with position.
Play more on Stars. KQo always wins.From a convo with strategy earlier:[12:55] strategy: I guess we're never going to let that KQo hand go into history[12:55] strategy: which is fine by me[12:55] Bizzle: the one where i jammed over jacks?[12:55] Bizzle: jacks never win, kqo always wins[12:56] Bizzle: i was like 300% to win that hand
QUOTE(JSHamm @ Monday, October 23rd, 2006, 2:03 PM) View Post
I come here for verbal splooging.

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#31 Vick12

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Posted 14 March 2006 - 11:02 AM

View Posttherrinn, on Tuesday, March 14th, 2006, 9:24 AM, said:

FYP
Therrinn...this is Bizzle we are talking about...not Huck Biggens!!! :club: BizzleGreat addition to the thread. Your take on finding the tightest player at the table is very valuable advice!
If everyone plays by the same math rules we all lose to the rake.
If your a 70pct favorite to beat someone in general, why take an allin with them at 66/34 ? your giving them the edge.
-MTT Theory by dscoot

respekmestak: Lee jones I heard something you and teabaging??

"Don't test me when I am crazy...on that airplane glue
I'll put my foot down your throat...till u schit in my shoe
What u want KOJAK...TO DRINK PROTEIN SHAKES AND FIGHT
What u need KOJAK...TO GLADIATE ALL NIGHT!!!"


#32 swiftD777

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Posted 21 March 2006 - 03:42 AM

I'm bumping this thread up. I need help with my late middle game. I have a very hard time knowing when it is the right time to change gears. I usually have no problem accumulating a lot of chips early. I am frequently heading into hour three with 10-13K but I can't seem to get past that and build enough chips to have an impact when I get to the final table. How often should I be stealing? Do the cards matter? How early of a position can I attempt a steal with a hand like say, K10? It seems there is always a way more aggressive player at the table with a similar chip stack and I just let him go nuts and either donk off all his chips or accumulate a huge stack. I want to puke everytime I see someone calling 10K with 88 vs. AJ in a 9 handed game, I don't like coinflips for my entire stack after hour 2. Is this my problem? Too timid?I am very skilled at playing a short stack, and I enjoy sitting back and moving up in the money while half the final table gets elminated, but I would like to fix my game so I actually win one of these things!Here are my stats for the last 10 days, when I started playing these things.33 Total played:2nd: 13rd: 14th: 16th: 18th: 110-18 1No Cash 27Please advise!

#33 kilgoretrout

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 12:54 PM

I just wanted to thank tho OP for his great post which has directly resulted in me being 1058$ richer, so just thought i'd say thanks.

#34 Vick12

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 04:55 PM

BUMPJust wanted to add a little to this thread.I have had the PLEASURE of playing in (4) $4 180 SnG's that Stars has recently offered. If you aren't a high roller and want to learn/get better at MTT's, I HIGHLY reccomend playing these using EVERYTHING therrinn (and Bizzle and others as well) says!!!! SERIOUSLY!!!In the (4) I took, DNP, 8th, 8th, and 1st.In general my game is better than a $4 MTT, (it's my bankroll that says otherwise!!! LOL) but even if I was horrid, following the guidelines in this post should EASILY get you to the top 18 and likely a FT.So for all the newb/donks/poor folks....play these using the strats outlined here and you should enjoy success!!!
If everyone plays by the same math rules we all lose to the rake.
If your a 70pct favorite to beat someone in general, why take an allin with them at 66/34 ? your giving them the edge.
-MTT Theory by dscoot

respekmestak: Lee jones I heard something you and teabaging??

"Don't test me when I am crazy...on that airplane glue
I'll put my foot down your throat...till u schit in my shoe
What u want KOJAK...TO DRINK PROTEIN SHAKES AND FIGHT
What u need KOJAK...TO GLADIATE ALL NIGHT!!!"


#35 towerguy

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 06:26 PM

View PostVick12, on Tuesday, March 28th, 2006, 4:55 PM, said:

BUMPJust wanted to add a little to this thread.I have had the PLEASURE of playing in (4) $4 180 SnG's that Stars has recently offered. If you aren't a high roller and want to learn/get better at MTT's, I HIGHLY reccomend playing these using EVERYTHING therrinn (and Bizzle and others as well) says!!!! SERIOUSLY!!!In the (4) I took, DNP, 8th, 8th, and 1st.In general my game is better than a $4 MTT, (it's my bankroll that says otherwise!!! LOL) but even if I was horrid, following the guidelines in this post should EASILY get you to the top 18 and likely a FT.So for all the newb/donks/poor folks....play these using the strats outlined here and you should enjoy success!!!
Nice going Vic!Every bit builds the roll for sure.I tried to play these last week, but they stop running at 530PM I think.My roll took a beating as well - My wife seen the email from Stars after I won that 180 SNG....and then she wanted her share...which is definitely -EV lol
Wheres my money!!!!!!

#36 Vick12

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 07:11 PM

View Posttowerguy, on Tuesday, March 28th, 2006, 6:26 PM, said:

Nice going Vic!Every bit builds the roll for sure.I tried to play these last week, but they stop running at 530PM I think.My roll took a beating as well - My wife seen the email from Stars after I won that 180 SNG....and then she wanted her share...which is definitely -EV lol
Ty Tower!Yeah these are syrupy sweeeeet...do try a few.To avoid situations w/ wife that are -EV....A. Erase the annoouncement when u get them...orB. Go to your account at PStars and click "Requests"...UNCLICK recieve tournament win congrat email...Then...to get in a +EV situation...after the next decent cash RANDOMLY give her something...that should easily get you in a +EV situation later that evening!!!So you can...you know.....PLAY MORE POKER!!! :club:
If everyone plays by the same math rules we all lose to the rake.
If your a 70pct favorite to beat someone in general, why take an allin with them at 66/34 ? your giving them the edge.
-MTT Theory by dscoot

respekmestak: Lee jones I heard something you and teabaging??

"Don't test me when I am crazy...on that airplane glue
I'll put my foot down your throat...till u schit in my shoe
What u want KOJAK...TO DRINK PROTEIN SHAKES AND FIGHT
What u need KOJAK...TO GLADIATE ALL NIGHT!!!"


#37 therrinn

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 11:13 PM

So I've been experimenting a little bit with the 50$ 90 person sitandgos...they pay just the final table, but its a much nicer payscale than the one for the 180s imo. So far I've found the play to be horrendous, possibly even worse than in the $20 180s (perhaps people just haven't figured out how to play these yet?). I've been very card-dead, and I can't seem to win in a 70/30 situation, and despite that I've been getting pretty deep, to the last 2 or 3 tables without being able to double up on big hands. If you were to get any sort of decent cards at all I see no reason why a high cash rate shouldn't be possible. I mean, in the first 10 minutes there are often as many as 15 people out already - people clearly are not understanding that the payout structure dictates an approach more akin to that of traditional SNG strategy than that of the accumulator MTT strategy. If anyone has been playing a lot of these (I've only played 5 so far) I'd definitely appreciate any ideas/comments.

#38 blakheart

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    Bankroll manangement???

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 08:35 AM

Bump-Just to keep this on the front page.

#39 Swift_Psycho

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 12:37 PM

View Postblakheart, on Wednesday, March 29th, 2006, 11:35 AM, said:

Bump-Just to keep this on the front page.
This really should just be stickied.

#40 throwemaway

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 12:52 PM

First off, fabolous posts you guys..This is all great stuff, especially from Bizzle and Rrinn..I do have a question though.. What does your bankroll need/should be at approximately to be playing these?Thanks in advance
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First blog. I don't really know why you would want to read it but if you do, go ahead..New update! Will update in Feb in light of 4.40 challenge!
http://blogs.texasholdem.com/Throwemaway/index.php




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