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Ps 180 Person $20 Sngs


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#1 therrinn

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 07:36 AM

I've noticed more and more people playing these and posting questions about them. Since they are my primary livelihood, I figured I would post the strat system that I use, and hopefully help some people out as well as get feedback on where other people's strategies diverge from mine. This is probably going to be a very long post, but if you play the 180s regularly you might find it useful and I would certainly appreciate feedback. If not, you'd probably find it tedious and boring, so go ahead and skip :)General assumptions:1) Playing for the top 3 positions, as that is where all the money is.2) Have the bankroll to play lots of these without making a big cash.3) 90%+ of the people you're playing against have large flaws in their games.The first hour:The first hour I play with a very tight starting hand selection. I will play AA/KK/QQ/AK extremely hard. My rule is to never fold these preflop in a 180. I will raise or if there's already a raise before me, I will jam preflop with any of these hands. You will get called so often by much worse hands (AQ/AJ, 77) that it is a very profitable play, particularly with AK. Assuming I see a flop, I play the premium pairs as if they were the nuts - if someone outflopped me and actually does have 2 pair or a set, so be it, I will go jump into the next SNG. Naturally there are limitations to this (I'm not saying jam QQ against a bet and a call on a Ace-high board), but the general principle holds. With the structure the way it is and the players as bad as they are, you simply have to have faith that your premium hands will hold and double you up.During the 10/20 and 15/30 levels I tend to like to raise to (5 + number of limpers)*bb. During the 25/50 level I tend to switch to (4 + number o limpers)*bb. Beyond that I switch to 3bb raises, adjusted for the number of limpers ahead of me. If I make a raise with AQ/AJ and hit the A, I'm pretty much treating it like I had AK, as I willl very often get action from A2-9. With pps I like to try to see cheap flops and hit a set, as the chances of being paid off if the other person hit anything whatsoever are very high. By the end of the first hour there are usually between 70-80 people remaining, with an average stack somewhere just short of 3.5k. If I have doubled up to 3k, I'm generally quite happy as I should be able to work with that at the 75/150 and 100/200 levels. Ideally I like to have 4k-5k (higher is of course great but not very feasible on a regular basis). The Second Hour:The second hour is the hour where I feel like my advantage over the competition is the greatest. It is the reason that I'm willing to push my premium hands so hard during the first hour - I know that if I can get that one double up, I'll be in great shape to make a run and go deep by exploiting the poor play during the second hour. The reason that I feel like I have such an advantage is simply that people haven't read their HoH. Very few people seem to have an understanding of M, or know which hands to play against which sized stacks, or when and whom to bluff.One key aspect to remember is that the blinds actually increase very slowly in the second hour. You have levels of 75/150, 100/200, 25/100/200, and 25/200/400. Your 3 or 4k will last you quite a while at those blinds, so you really do actually have time to wait for a good hand. Also, do not worry about developing a tight table image and not getting action. The chances that people are paying attention to anything but their own two cards are tiny. Depending on my stack size and villain's stack size, I'm willing to call moderate raises with pocket pairs and suited connectors hoping to break someone if they have enough chips behind them to make it worthwhile. When smaller stacks are involved, naturally preflop rank is my primary criterion for whether to play a hand. One thing that's increidbly important to note is that people bluff A LOT during this hour. I often find it better to just call until the river, letting the other guy do the betting for me since he will so often gladly oblige where he wouldn't normally be calling. By the time that you get to the end of the second hour, there could be anywhere from 35-20 people left in the tournament, and you're going to want a stack of at least 8k to feel comfortable, but I prefer to aim high and get 10k+ so that I have room to manouever with 2 and 3 tables left. Tendencies to exploit in the second hour:1) People constantly check-raise all in with nothing but a flush draw. Naturally not all people do this, but it is a very very common tactic in these 180s.2) People will call bets that are far too large with a draw, whether straight or flush. Feel free to toss in pot sized bets in order to make them way over-pay for their draw.3) People with Ms less than 10 are playing a far too wide variety of hands. Feel free to call their preflop raises not so much for the implied odds but because their short stacked desperation leads them to make horrible desperate plays on the flop which you can easily exploit if you catch any piece of it. Beyond the Second Hour:The blinds start to increase very fast, quickly becoming an important factor for all but the biggest stacks. Having a big stack during this point where the people with stacks of 5-10k are becoming desperate is tremendously +EV since you can be completely willing to take coinflips for only a portion of your stack. There really isn't much of a bubble effect in most of these, since the bubble is relatively meaningless. There are occasional exceptions, but few and far between.Once I get to the final two tables, my goal is to accumulate a minimum of 25k chips to head into the FT with. Obviously more is better. But the FT usually starts with blinds somewhere like 600/1200, and there are usually 2-3 people with short stacks of 10k or sok, a few people in the 20-35 range, and usually one or 2 big stacks in the 50k range. With a stack of 25k going in, you have enough chips that you're not forced to make a move early, and yet enough that you're a threat to everyone and can gamble on a coinflip or marginal situation against a shortie without eliminating yourself. I generally start out playing the final table very tight. The reason for this is simple - we've just been playing for a while at two short-handed tables. Many people were correctly playing a much wider range of hands 5 or 6-handed then they should at a full table. However, the quick change back to a full table and the excitement of being at the FT usually catches them off guard, and some people are liable to not switch gears back down into a more selective preflop strategy. After one or two orbits, most likely one or two people will be out, and this is where I like to go into steal mode, raising preflop an average of 2x per orbit if the situation allows. Again, with these raises I'm really not playing my cards - just the sizes of the stacks around me and their tendencies. I will not call reraises or all-ins with marginal hands like low pps or AJ-A2 (AQ depends on the person). I will call with AK every time, and QQ-AA every time. If I do find myself short-stacked at the final table, I find myself stop-and-going like a madman. I've found it to be an incredibly effective strategy for rebuilding my stack if I get down to the 10kish range. That doesn't mean I become reckless or start targetting the wrong stacks - 10k is still very respectable and you are one double up away from being in serious contention again.By the time it gets down to 4 people, I hope to have some solid reads against my opponents. I'll still be aggressive preflop, but I'll probably mix up how often I'm raising every couple of orbits so as not too become too predictable. Most importantly, I'm going to play the opposite style that my opponents are. If they're weak-tight, I'll be raising lots preflop and bluffing frequently. If they're crazy aggressive (and there usually is at least one) I'll try to set a trap out of a blind and cripple their stack in one key hand. Against some players you're going to need a very big hand, against others tptk is a candidate for going all in. Play the people, not the cards. One major tendency people have is to overplay their small pairs preflop. Usually a tell-tell sign of this is the overly large preflop raise or reraise. There are times like that when you're just going to have to put faith in your read and call off your stack with a hand like 99 or TT. The most important thing when shorthanded is to simply be aware of other people's patterns and the patterns that you are exhibiting. Have you raised 5 times in a row on the button? Well, if you get a monster on the button, go ahead and raise again and hope that you'll get played back at by someone tired of your bullying. Another play I'm a big fan of is just completing the sb and then folding to aggression. If I can develop a pattern of that in villain's mind, it then becomes easy for me to set a trap when I actually have a good holding in that position. I just try to be as aware as possible of the patterns that are forming and how aware I think that my opponents are of what is going on. I won't really comment on heads-up, as that is the area of play where I am weakest. If I come in even in chips and have respect for my opponent, I'll often make a deal to chop. If I come in ahead or my opponent doesn't really strike fear in my heart, I'll play it out and try to get the 1.08k first place payday.

#2 copernicus

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 07:51 AM

POTY
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#3 Vick12

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 08:04 AM

I agree w/ Copernicus 100%...EXCELLENT WORK!!!I cut this from another thread, but I think it now fits better here.

View PostVick12, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 7:34 AM, said:

Even w/o seeing the HH, i will totally agree w/ Copernicus here. The 180's are such donkfests that even if u get a cold deck in the 1st hour and have a shade under your starting stack, you still are in fine shape to make a run. It's very common to have over 1/2 the field gone in hour 1. If you get chips in the 1st hour it puts you in a great spot to make a run, but if you do go cold early it's not like other MTT's where you are forever playing catchup. Usually a 5k stack after 2nd break is enough to make the Final 18 and a cash. Therrinn...would you agree w/ this assement?
For the record your strat very closely resembles the one I employ for these as well. I think I tend to be a little more careful in hour 1 as somewhat stated above.Thougts?
If everyone plays by the same math rules we all lose to the rake.
If your a 70pct favorite to beat someone in general, why take an allin with them at 66/34 ? your giving them the edge.
-MTT Theory by dscoot

respekmestak: Lee jones I heard something you and teabaging??

"Don't test me when I am crazy...on that airplane glue
I'll put my foot down your throat...till u schit in my shoe
What u want KOJAK...TO DRINK PROTEIN SHAKES AND FIGHT
What u need KOJAK...TO GLADIATE ALL NIGHT!!!"


#4 Bizzle

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 08:17 AM

I have a lot of thoughts on this. But they boil down todo what Bizzle says. Get to three handed. Do the opposite of what Bizzle says.Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.Seriously though, I do have some thoughts (especially on blind raises, and play at a few certain levels). I will try to toss some stuff up later in the day.
QUOTE(JSHamm @ Monday, October 23rd, 2006, 2:03 PM) View Post
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#5 therrinn

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 08:55 AM

View PostVick12, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 10:04 AM, said:

I agree w/ Copernicus 100%...EXCELLENT WORK!!!I cut this from another thread, but I think it now fits better here.For the record your strat very closely resembles the one I employ for these as well. I think I tend to be a little more careful in hour 1 as somewhat stated above.Thougts?
I agree with you about 5k not being that dire of a stack, even at the second break. Blinds of 200/400...yeah, its definitely not the optimum position that you want to be in, but you still have enough chips to push over the top of a medium stack with some fold equity and you have enough chips to wait a bit for a premium hand or to pull off a stop and go. The blind structure really is quite friendly in these for the most part, and I think a lot of people get desperate a lot sooner than they need to.

#6 Vick12

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 09:05 AM

View Posttherrinn, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 8:55 AM, said:

I agree with you about 5k not being that dire of a stack, even at the second break. Blinds of 200/400...yeah, its definitely not the optimum position that you want to be in, but you still have enough chips to push over the top of a medium stack with some fold equity and you have enough chips to wait a bit for a premium hand or to pull off a stop and go. The blind structure really is quite friendly in these for the most part, and I think a lot of people get desperate a lot sooner than they need to.
TY.I guess I am more interested on your take of hour 1. I am of the belief in these 180 sng's, thats it's not a bad idea at all to be even super tight hour 1. So many donks die in hour one, and MANY of the other donks build a stack that's easily taken away from them after the break. Now, it's not like I am advocating just sitting on your hands and not playing hour 1. If you get a hand run with it.I look at it this way. After hour 1 it has now become a 70-80 person tourney. If i have close to my original stack, the blinds aren't quite ready to kill me in hour 2. As you mention with very few understanding "M", I have been able to usually build my stack to that magic 5k number in this hour.Thoughts?
If everyone plays by the same math rules we all lose to the rake.
If your a 70pct favorite to beat someone in general, why take an allin with them at 66/34 ? your giving them the edge.
-MTT Theory by dscoot

respekmestak: Lee jones I heard something you and teabaging??

"Don't test me when I am crazy...on that airplane glue
I'll put my foot down your throat...till u schit in my shoe
What u want KOJAK...TO DRINK PROTEIN SHAKES AND FIGHT
What u need KOJAK...TO GLADIATE ALL NIGHT!!!"


#7 therrinn

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 09:25 AM

View PostVick12, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 11:05 AM, said:

TY.I guess I am more interested on your take of hour 1. I am of the belief in these 180 sng's, thats it's not a bad idea at all to be even super tight hour 1. So many donks die in hour one, and MANY of the other donks build a stack that's easily taken away from them after the break. Now, it's not like I am advocating just sitting on your hands and not playing hour 1. If you get a hand run with it.I look at it this way. After hour 1 it has now become a 70-80 person tourney. If i have close to my original stack, the blinds aren't quite ready to kill me in hour 2. As you mention with very few understanding "M", I have been able to usually build my stack to that magic 5k number in this hour.Thoughts?
I think I'm for a slightly more aggressive line in the first hour than you take. I think that a pretty standard distribution for me is that out of every 4 180s that I play, by the first break I have:1) bust2) 1.5-3k3) 1.5-3k4) 4-5kSo I guess the question becomes whether its better to get 4-5k once and bust once or have 1.5k-2k consistently. IMO its worth it to take the added risk of busting in order to build a big stack - with a 4k stack I can often get to 15-20k by the second break, and those extra chips allow me to take advantage of a bunch of situations that I would not be able to with a lower chip stack, as well as giving me a greater ability to steal blinds when the blinds/antes get up to 25/200/400.

#8 Vick12

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 09:55 AM

View Posttherrinn, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 9:25 AM, said:

I think I'm for a slightly more aggressive line in the first hour than you take. I think that a pretty standard distribution for me is that out of every 4 180s that I play, by the first break I have:1) bust2) 1.5-3k3) 1.5-3k4) 4-5kSo I guess the question becomes whether its better to get 4-5k once and bust once or have 1.5k-2k consistently. IMO its worth it to take the added risk of busting in order to build a big stack - with a 4k stack I can often get to 15-20k by the second break, and those extra chips allow me to take advantage of a bunch of situations that I would not be able to with a lower chip stack, as well as giving me a greater ability to steal blinds when the blinds/antes get up to 25/200/400.
Good points! I am working hard to get better at "chip building" instead of "chip survivng". I have had a tendancy to err towards waiting too long sometimes before I make a move. I probaly have a breakdown of...1) Bust/5002) 1k-2k3) 1.5K-2.k4) 3kI rarely have a bigger stack than 3k unless someone donks it into me and I have flopped the nuts.Is there any validity to my point of "survivng" the 1st hour and basically cut the tourney in 1/2?
If everyone plays by the same math rules we all lose to the rake.
If your a 70pct favorite to beat someone in general, why take an allin with them at 66/34 ? your giving them the edge.
-MTT Theory by dscoot

respekmestak: Lee jones I heard something you and teabaging??

"Don't test me when I am crazy...on that airplane glue
I'll put my foot down your throat...till u schit in my shoe
What u want KOJAK...TO DRINK PROTEIN SHAKES AND FIGHT
What u need KOJAK...TO GLADIATE ALL NIGHT!!!"


#9 therrinn

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 10:10 AM

View PostVick12, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 11:55 AM, said:

Good points! I am working hard to get better at "chip building" instead of "chip survivng". I have had a tendancy to err towards waiting too long sometimes before I make a move. I probaly have a breakdown of...1) Bust/5002) 1k-2k3) 1.5K-2.k4) 3kI rarely have a bigger stack than 3k unless someone donks it into me and I have flopped the nuts.Is there any validity to my point of "survivng" the 1st hour and basically cut the tourney in 1/2?
I think there's definitely some validity to the point of 'surviving' - I know that I've been able to come back from having a 1.5-2k stack at the first break and still build up and get deep. But I think I would take the survival strategy as more of a backup plan if I was getting really cold-decked (which definitely happens). That way you can conserve chips for when you can use some positional plays in the second hour to build up your stack as opposed to busting out in the first hour trying to make something happen when the cards just weren't with you. But I think that if you do get decent cards, its best to play them to the max and try to build up the stack.I'm currently playing a 180, and this hand happened just before the first break. I call this "Why I don't fold QQ in a 180":Seat 1: BigChips101 (625 in chips) Seat 2: TommyCanYou (1790 in chips) Seat 3: voltairess (2195 in chips) Seat 4: DaisyBlu (4665 in chips) Seat 5: raylem (1365 in chips) Seat 6: J A M 1948 (3365 in chips) Seat 7: elev8ted (2335 in chips) Seat 8: womnRrake (2225 in chips) Seat 9: therrinn (3835 in chips) J A M 1948: posts small blind 50elev8ted: posts big blind 100*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to therrinn [Qc Qh]womnRrake: folds therrinn: raises 200 to 300BigChips101: folds TommyCanYou: folds voltairess: folds DaisyBlu: raises 500 to 800raylem: folds J A M 1948: folds elev8ted: folds therrinn: calls 500*** FLOP *** [8h 3c 2d]therrinn: bets 800DaisyBlu: calls 800*** TURN *** [8h 3c 2d] [6s]therrinn: bets 2235 and is all-inDaisyBlu: calls 2235*** RIVER *** [8h 3c 2d 6s] [3d]*** SHOW DOWN ***therrinn: shows [Qc Qh] (two pair, Queens and Threes)DaisyBlu: shows [9d 9h] (two pair, Nines and Threes)therrinn collected 7820 from potIf I hadn't played an AK very aggressively earlier, I wouldn't have had the chips to double up with in this situation. The 8k going into the second hour puts me in a situation where I have the option of dominating my table, waiting for good hands since I can withstand the blinds, and taking coinflips against the smaller stacks. I think the potential benefits of the big stack outweigh the concerns of occasionally busting in the first hour.

#10 Vick12

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 03:35 PM

View Posttherrinn, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 10:10 AM, said:

I think there's definitely some validity to the point of 'surviving' - I know that I've been able to come back from having a 1.5-2k stack at the first break and still build up and get deep. But I think I would take the survival strategy as more of a backup plan if I was getting really cold-decked (which definitely happens). That way you can conserve chips for when you can use some positional plays in the second hour to build up your stack as opposed to busting out in the first hour trying to make something happen when the cards just weren't with you. But I think that if you do get decent cards, its best to play them to the max and try to build up the stack.I'm currently playing a 180, and this hand happened just before the first break. I call this "Why I don't fold QQ in a 180":Seat 1: BigChips101 (625 in chips) Seat 2: TommyCanYou (1790 in chips) Seat 3: voltairess (2195 in chips) Seat 4: DaisyBlu (4665 in chips) Seat 5: raylem (1365 in chips) Seat 6: J A M 1948 (3365 in chips) Seat 7: elev8ted (2335 in chips) Seat 8: womnRrake (2225 in chips) Seat 9: therrinn (3835 in chips) J A M 1948: posts small blind 50elev8ted: posts big blind 100*** HOLE CARDS ***Dealt to therrinn [Qc Qh]womnRrake: folds therrinn: raises 200 to 300BigChips101: folds TommyCanYou: folds voltairess: folds DaisyBlu: raises 500 to 800raylem: folds J A M 1948: folds elev8ted: folds therrinn: calls 500*** FLOP *** [8h 3c 2d]therrinn: bets 800DaisyBlu: calls 800*** TURN *** [8h 3c 2d] [6s]therrinn: bets 2235 and is all-inDaisyBlu: calls 2235*** RIVER *** [8h 3c 2d 6s] [3d]*** SHOW DOWN ***therrinn: shows [Qc Qh] (two pair, Queens and Threes)DaisyBlu: shows [9d 9h] (two pair, Nines and Threes)therrinn collected 7820 from potIf I hadn't played an AK very aggressively earlier, I wouldn't have had the chips to double up with in this situation. The 8k going into the second hour puts me in a situation where I have the option of dominating my table, waiting for good hands since I can withstand the blinds, and taking coinflips against the smaller stacks. I think the potential benefits of the big stack outweigh the concerns of occasionally busting in the first hour.
Very nice play w/ the QQ!I appreciate the feedback! I need to re-evaluate the 1st hour and maybe take a few more chances (not psycho bluffs or anything, but maybe call down a hand I think I'm beat on, reraise a player i am sure is weak...etc.) and get better at building a stack.Thanks again!
If everyone plays by the same math rules we all lose to the rake.
If your a 70pct favorite to beat someone in general, why take an allin with them at 66/34 ? your giving them the edge.
-MTT Theory by dscoot

respekmestak: Lee jones I heard something you and teabaging??

"Don't test me when I am crazy...on that airplane glue
I'll put my foot down your throat...till u schit in my shoe
What u want KOJAK...TO DRINK PROTEIN SHAKES AND FIGHT
What u need KOJAK...TO GLADIATE ALL NIGHT!!!"


#11 towerguy

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 04:24 PM

Thanks for the advice Vic and rest - I am at the final table of one of these right now- tourney 21204590 !
Wheres my money!!!!!!

#12 copernicus

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 05:31 PM

View Posttowerguy, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 7:24 PM, said:

Thanks for the advice Vic and rest - I am at the final table of one of these right now- tourney 21204590 !
and hes a winner! good job, sorry i got there late
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#13 Vick12

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 07:05 PM

View Posttowerguy, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 4:24 PM, said:

Thanks for the advice Vic and rest - I am at the final table of one of these right now- tourney 21204590 !
Tower1st Great Job!!!! Good to see yuo playing well!!!2nd...Please turn your thanks to therrinn...he is the one who has 99% of the valuable information in this thread.Now...if you are looking for good Bizzle jokes...I'm yur man!
If everyone plays by the same math rules we all lose to the rake.
If your a 70pct favorite to beat someone in general, why take an allin with them at 66/34 ? your giving them the edge.
-MTT Theory by dscoot

respekmestak: Lee jones I heard something you and teabaging??

"Don't test me when I am crazy...on that airplane glue
I'll put my foot down your throat...till u schit in my shoe
What u want KOJAK...TO DRINK PROTEIN SHAKES AND FIGHT
What u need KOJAK...TO GLADIATE ALL NIGHT!!!"


#14 mrdannyg

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 07:20 PM

don't know enough to contribute much, but just thought I'd say thanks for this post. More importantly, I hope to never play in one with any of you guys :club: Y'all may very well have another donk who's money to take soon though, as I'm considering starting to play these things, and I haven't read HoH (on order) and am not a good tourney player.quick question - why not reraise and/or push with that QQ there? that'd be my automatic play, but only because i mainly play free and tiny buy-in turbos. are you only getting called by AA/KK there? early in a tourney (i.e. chip accumulation mode) why not push?
Long signatures are really annoying.

#15 swiftD777

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 07:54 PM

Re: QQ vs 99... I'm curious about how you'd play the 9's in that situtation. I would probably just smooth call with the 9's preflop, but I think I get into a lot of trouble with flops like this where I have a medium overpair and someone is betting agressively into me, although I may be able to get away in this situation as I am not the agressor. I had a hand come up last night where I had a stack of about 7k with blinds 300/600. I picked up 99 from middle position and opened for 1800. I had a very tight table image. A big stack (14k) to my right smooth callled and we were heads up. Flop came 445 and I led out for 3000, about 3/4 the pot. He comes over the top and puts me all in. I make a crying call.I am thinking I may have made a couple mistakes, first in not pushing preflop and then second not pushing after the flop, since I wasn't getting away from the hand anyway. Should I be able to get away from this hand?I have a hard time laying down these hands even when my instinct tells me I am probably beat from the moment he smooth called. BTW, my opponent had KK so my results would have been the same no matter how agressive I played it, but I am trying to focus on decisions and not results :)Thoughts?

#16 therrinn

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 08:27 PM

I would also have smooth called with the 9s preflop. 9s are a very marginal hand to play against an EP raiser, and I'd be looking to hit a set or fold. I don't like to play big pots with small hands.His line with the 9s was particularly horrible. He was willing to reraise me preflop - he hit the ideal flop for his 9s short of a set, yet suddenly doesn't like his hand enough to reraise my probe bet on the flop. He has to know he's beat, since there is no way that I'm leading into a preflop reraiser with an unimproved AK, the only possible hand I could have other than a pp. Yet he convinces himself somehow that his hand might be good and calls off his stack in a situation where if he had gone through the betting he would've known there's no way that he's ahead.The reason I didn't jam preflop was because I figured everything that beat me would call and everything that didn't have me beat would fold. We both still had a ton of chips behind us - there's no reason not to see what the flop brings here. After I made my initial flop bet and before he made his call I became almost certain that my hand was good, based on the amount of time it took him to think. I actually thought his hand was stronger than the 99 that he had - figured him for JJ, since AA/KK are undoubtedly jamming me on that flop. I had been playing very tight yet my EP raise gets reraised by someone with 99, only further proving the point that table image is nothing. When the turn blanked I wanted to get all my money in right there since I was worried that an overcard on the river might scare him off his jacks (or in actuality his 9s). The real tough decision is what to do if he jams the flop in response to my probe bet. I still call, but I don't love the situation as I think its 50/50 then whether I'm behind to KK/AA or whether he's overambitious with a middle pair or AK.

#17 therrinn

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 08:45 PM

View PostswiftD777, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 9:54 PM, said:

Re: QQ vs 99... I'm curious about how you'd play the 9's in that situtation. I would probably just smooth call with the 9's preflop, but I think I get into a lot of trouble with flops like this where I have a medium overpair and someone is betting agressively into me, although I may be able to get away in this situation as I am not the agressor. I had a hand come up last night where I had a stack of about 7k with blinds 300/600. I picked up 99 from middle position and opened for 1800. I had a very tight table image. A big stack (14k) to my right smooth callled and we were heads up. Flop came 445 and I led out for 3000, about 3/4 the pot. He comes over the top and puts me all in. I make a crying call.I am thinking I may have made a couple mistakes, first in not pushing preflop and then second not pushing after the flop, since I wasn't getting away from the hand anyway. Should I be able to get away from this hand?I have a hard time laying down these hands even when my instinct tells me I am probably beat from the moment he smooth called. BTW, my opponent had KK so my results would have been the same no matter how agressive I played it, but I am trying to focus on decisions and not results :)Thoughts?
With your 99 hand...this is a perfect example of a hand that I would play in a way that is rather unorthodox and contrary to the usual aggressive strategy. I don't mind you opening for 1800 - in fact I think that's exactly the sort of bet that you should be making in that situation. Unfortunately, with the flop that comes, you're pretty much getting all your money in since you're too shortstacked to let a situation like this go. Ok, so assuming that on that flop you know that you're going to put all your money into the pot, why are you betting out? By betting out, you are going to shut out the hands that are worse than yours - all of the broadway cards that missed are probably going to fold to your bet. Any of the pairs that are higher than yours are going to call. The pairs that are lower than yours - depends on the player, they might call, might fold. If you check however, the entire spectrum of hands is probably going to bet. The pot is big enough to be worth bluffing at for villain. And, more importantly, you are shortstacked enough where you need to take some risks to accumulate chips. Check and let him bet before tossing your chips in the pot.When you are in a situation like this where you are resolved to get your chips in the pot and you know there is a high likelihood that your opponent will bet, I'd check to him. If you're behind you're behind and are going to go broke this hand either way that you play it. If you're ahead this play will get you more chips.Its important to note that I'm not suggesting that this is a way I like to play a lot of hands - this play is one I only use under very specific circumstances such as those described. If hero had a stack of 15k, betting out would certainly be the best option (though I might make my bet a bit smaller). In this case however, betting out really doesn't have any fold equity whatsoever as you don't have enough chips behind you to make him lay down a pp on that flop.

#18 swiftD777

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 10:44 PM

Thanks therinn, this is all good advice. My game is improving already from your advice. I finished 6th in the first 180 I played after reading your post and I do give you some credit for that. Not enough to give you a cut or anything, but kudos!

#19 anselm

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 05:00 AM

Therrinn, this is excellent. I've never played on PS, never played a 180: but now I want too. Point is, your advice applies to so many different types of tournaments. Good stuff.
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#20 towerguy

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 07:58 AM

View PostVick12, on Sunday, March 12th, 2006, 7:05 PM, said:

Tower1st Great Job!!!! Good to see yuo playing well!!!2nd...Please turn your thanks to therrinn...he is the one who has 99% of the valuable information in this thread.Now...if you are looking for good Bizzle jokes...I'm yur man!
Good point Vick!Thanks for the advice therrinn....2 of your points, which I never fully considered before (I am still a fairly new player) really helped me today, they are:Tendencies to exploit in the second hour:2) People will call bets that are far too large with a draw, whether straight or flush. Feel free to toss in pot sized bets in order to make them way over-pay for their draw.3) People with Ms less than 10 are playing a far too wide variety of hands. Feel free to call their preflop raises not so much for the implied odds but because their short stacked desperation leads them to make horrible desperate plays on the flop which you can easily exploit if you catch any piece of it. As well , your strategy of playing tight initially at the Final table really helped. I was 2nd in chips when the FT started, and I think 3 guys were busted before I even played a hand. After that, my bluffs / continuation bets were respected. Then when it got heads up, I got lucky, which really helps as well :club:
Wheres my money!!!!!!




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