82 replies to this topic

[JFarrell20]

OK I was playing in a $10+1 1-table SNG last night when the following happened.4 players left. Top 3 pay 50/30/20. You know the deal.We're down to final 4. SB 150 BB 300. Chips: Me 1450girl to my left about 2700dude to her left about 175dude to his left (my right) 3675. I'm in SB with A 10 diamonds. I move all-in to steal the 300 BB or double up. (I'd moved all in pre-flop at least 3 times already and nobody had called so I thought I may get called with a weaker hand here). This table was playing VERY passively on the bubble. Even the chipleader didn't complete the SB to my BB.Girl to my left (with 2400 left)...takes forever...then calls. I'm happy when she calls. I'm even happier to see her flip over K 10 offsuit but have a bad feeling about the K. Like clockwork...a K comes on the flop knocking me out in 4th place. Next hand the guy with 175 is automatically all-in in the BB, and loses. He makes money. I don't. I felt sick. Should I have waited I thought? What really pisses me off is the fact that this guy had FOLDED in the SB just three hands earlier which was for almost half of his stack... he was totally trying to eek his way into the money, and I was the fool who allowed him that.I felt like crap. I mean I play for first. Not third. But I could have easily gotten away from this and eeked into the money as well. What also sucks is had my hand held up I'd have been at about 2900 in chips (2nd place). The chipleader was not too strong either. I 50/50 that I could have ended up first had I won this pot. But anyway... what are your thoughts? Too aggressive to push in there? Should I have just called and seen a flop? What would you guys have done?

[Devilkin]

Too agressive, in my opinion. There was no reason to do this. All in (in my books anyways) happens:1) when someone goes all in preflop before me, and I have AA in hand (not KK, not AK).2) Post flop (pre-turn), and I've nailed a set, straight or flush later in the tourney.3) I have the nut hand.4) Once Im 'in the money', THEN my game turns very agressive - like A10s, Id take a chance on that one, especially if the table is being passive.You took a chance, and got burned on a good, but not premier hand. Learn from it.Dev

[FromTheRail]

I'd probably be throwing any hand away except a big pair in this position and just wait for the small stack to go out. After ensuring a money spot I'd be looking for the first halfway decent hand and I'd be pushing all in. Normally, I advocate aggression and playing to win, however, in this spot the small stack is so low I'd just wait.

[fryer98]

I'd pretty much agree with what was posted. I play for first as well, but in that situation, I play until top three, then play for first. Do you think that stealing the blinds here, as you said you were doing (OR double up), is going to be the difference in 1st to 2nd-4th?? I would have raised to try and steal them, and got out if I didnt hit my hand and the BB bet to me.That's how I see it.

[wrto4556]

Fold it pre-flop. After you make the money start looking for a place to double up.

[Vade]

I'd have tried to see a cheap flop.All of your preflop raises should make the BB hesitant to make a move on you, and you see the K on the flop and fold, no harm done. Honestly, I think it's too passive to surrender your sb on this hand.

[JFarrell20]

Vade said:

I'd have tried to see a cheap flop.All of your preflop raises should make the BB hesitant to make a move on you, and you see the K on the flop and fold, no harm done.  Honestly, I think it's too passive to surrender your sb on this hand.

Yeah, I mean, the poker gods would kill me if I folded this hand in the SB. That, frankly is not an option, even so close to the money. So it's either call, raise, or move all in. I don't have much room to raise here then get away from it, so that option is out the window. So, I figured it was limp, or push. I pushed cuz I figured I'd at least steal a BB, and very likely that I'd double up. Crappy situation though. I think over the course of 1000 SNG's, moving all in here is probably going to earn me more money than folding, limping, or raising will. Just my theory, of course, I also theorize about hand rankings and other satanic stuff like that...so...what're ya gonna do? :?

[wrto4556]

JFarrell20 said:

what're ya gonna do?    : ?

You're going to not risk all your chips on the bubble.

[JFarrell20]

wrto4556 said:

JFarrell20 said:

what're ya gonna do?    : ?

You're going to not risk all your chips on the bubble.

Here are the 3 things that can happen:1) I get called, and lose, and am knocked out -$11.002) I get a fold, and thus steal a blind. dude goes out next hand, I'm in the money for at least $20. +$9 profit.3a) I get a call, and win, and am up to 2900 (2nd in chips) with virtually 3 people left after the next hand. 2nd in chips theoretically will get me $30. +$19 profit. 3b) I get a call, and win, and am up to 2900 (2nd in chips) with virtually 3 people left after the next hand. Considering the chipstack has about 4 grand, and he's not as good as me, there is a chance I actually win first here. $50. +$39 profit.I think in the long run, pushing all in here will pay off much more than just eeking your way into the money. WRTO, I thought you said you play extra aggressive on the bubble? Is that only if you are the chipleader? Cuz the chipleader here wasn't even completing SB's.

[wrto4556]

I play aggressive, but I dont risk my tournament life that often. It's a hard medium to find.

[rusmac31]

Mr. Farrell,I happen to agree with you on this one. It's either all-in or fold. A raise here of any significance commits you to the pot.A10s is really strong 4 handed on the bubble. So there is no way you fold.Now that I've said I agree, you mentioned that you had raised the big blind 3 times before. Given that, this may be one of those situations where a limp might have been warranted.At some point, if someone keeps raising my big blind and I have them covered, I will call with any 2 decent cards.Especially if I know if I lose, I'm still in the money (ie. the short stack was 175 and was about to get hit with 2 blinds).And now that I've contradicted myself, going all-in with A10s against 1 random hand will win more than it will lose long term.BTW: I'm not dodging you...I got your invite the other night and clicked accepted and nothing happened.I've never used the buddy feature on Party. I'll try to get accustomed to it this week so we can play.PS. As long as you don't change the rules and 3 of a kind still beats top 2 pair

[JFarrell20]

The only valid point I see for limping is hoping she moves over the top of me (due to me stealing so many blinds lately, a limp may give off the "im not that strong vibe"). If she moves over the top I have to call considering she could have anything and is just making a move on me. All that makes a little sense.. but I mean if I limp and she moves all in I HAVE to call, so why risk it? I think just push all in here and hope to steal another blind or double up.Con for limping: Flop comes Q 9 5....... uhhhh...now what? You see what I mean? I don't want her to see any more cards than the two she's already got.In the end I think I just got unlucky, and busted out on the bubble. 9 times out of 10 pushing all in here is going to be +EV. I just wanted to see how you guys would have played this hand. Frankly I'm surprised at how tight the responses have been. I didn't think pushing all in was that bad.PS: What's the deal with everyone being nice to me today? You are the second person I've had a flame war with who has personally come out and agreed with me today. I don't get it, but it's nice. :-)

[JFarrell20]

XXEddie said:

Why dont you push in hereyou are down to about 5xBB and in the SB with A10s, you HAVE to move in here. Moving in here gives you a chance to finsh better than 3rd. You have to play to win, not to make the money. I love it when people fold everything just so they dont get bubbled out, they are a bunch of pussies and once they do make the money, there are down to 2-3BB and to go out third, hilarious to watch

Thank you, Peter. You've renewed my faith in you.

[Vade]

So you'd risk giving 20 bucks to a guy who's gonna be all in on the next BB?That makes no monetary sense at all.

[wrto4556]

Vade said:

So you'd risk giving 20 bucks to a guy who's gonna be all in on the next BB?That makes no monetary sense at all.

This is so right. It's hard not to understand where you're coming from.

[JFarrell20]

The point is, I'm not playing for 3rd. I'll take 2nd with a great opportunity at first or 4th with no money before I take eeking my way into 3rd.I'm surprised at you WRTO. If I push all in here 100 times, and you fold 100 times, I guarantee you I will have made more real money at the end. It just happens to suck in the short term when you spend 45 minutes and earn nothing.WRTO, you need to put a disclaimer on your NL tourney posts. Aren't NL tourneys admittedly one of your weaker games? I thought I heard you say that once.

[wrto4556]

JFarrell20 said:

The point is, I'm not playing for 3rd.  I'll take 2nd with a great opportunity at first or 4th with no money before I take eeking my way into 3rd.I'm surprised at you WRTO.  If I push all in here 100 times, and you fold 100 times, I guarantee you I will have made more real money at the end.  It just happens to suck in the short term when you spend 45 minutes and earn nothing.WRTO, you need to put a disclaimer on your NL tourney posts.  Aren't NL tourneys admittedly one of your weaker games?  I thought I heard you say that once.

No, they are not.The short stack has T125! nuff said.

[JFarrell20]

wrto4556 said:

JFarrell20 said:

The point is, I'm not playing for 3rd.  I'll take 2nd with a great opportunity at first or 4th with no money before I take eeking my way into 3rd.I'm surprised at you WRTO.  If I push all in here 100 times, and you fold 100 times, I guarantee you I will have made more real money at the end.  It just happens to suck in the short term when you spend 45 minutes and earn nothing.WRTO, you need to put a disclaimer on your NL tourney posts.  Aren't NL tourneys admittedly one of your weaker games?  I thought I heard you say that once.

No, they are not.The short stack has T125! nuff said.

Please list your games in order of expertise. I know how much limit and NL ring games you play...this cannot leave you much time to polish up on your NL tourneys.I really only play 3 games (in order of strength)1) NL tourneys $10+12) NL cash games $25 buy-in3) limit .5/1I would like to play more Omaha hi, but I need to polish up on it for fake money before I subject my bankroll to it.