7 replies to this topic

[SexyStudThang]

First I'd like to start by saying this isnt the most glorious of hands, in fact it's a pretty routine match up in the end, but it sparked a huge argument between myself and another friend of mine, both of us are what I'd like to consider pretty strong players, but our opinions on the folowing hand differ greatly on the correct play on the following hand.....The table is 10 handed, the game is 1/2PL Holdem with a rule of being able to make it $10 preflop at any time. There are 4 other VERY strong players at this game, and it's not your run of the mill 1/2 game. The competition at this table is a lot better than you'll find at most 2/5PL/NL games and up. Here's the setup for the hand....(Using button as seat 10 just for posterity)Seat 1: (SB) Strong Player who plays poker as only source of income, currently in a slump so plays a bit underaggressive.Seat 2: (BB) Myself, everything about me is posted above, plus you might have read a post or two to get an idea of how I think about things at a table. Seat 3: One of the weaker players at the table, but this weak player is a weak player with a much bigger bankroll than he needs for this limit. He has a lot of money and lot of pride, and is likely to continue any bluff without looking at the chips you have left before he does it. He is probably the most welcome presence at the table Seat 4: IrrelevantSeat 5: A very loose preflop player that gets aggressive after the flop any time he feels he can take the pot, but may in fact have that 75 off-suit that you didnt really account for in your raised pot. He is one of the strong players at the table. Seat 6: IrrelevantSeat 7: IrrelevantSeat 8: IrrelevantSeat 9: A player that I dont know much about, this is the first time I've seen him at the game but he appears to be on tilt and has rebought for $500 (The same as the big stack at the table) and playing a lot of pots, but I still feel like he's a weak player that overvalues certain hands. Seat 10: (Button) Irrelevant. So here goes... (My stack is about 174)Seat 3 throws in a stradle as the cards are being dealt to $4 (It is a live stradle effectively making him the new BB) Seats 1, 5, and 9 throw in the $4 call to the stradle, and I pick up pocket Jacks in the BB (Effectively the small blind). I have to decide whether Im going raise it here and try and play a heads up pot, or just throw in the call and see if I can hit a set. Now this play may be debatable, but the argument isnt over this, but I go ahead and just throw in the $2 and decide I'll pick a better spot to get aggressive with my hand. Seat three immediately announces raise pot ($20 more). All other seats fold quickly to seat one who agonizes for a bit and ultimately decides to throw the hand away. Now I'm faced with a couple of decisions, the first being whether Im going to play this pot or not. I ultimately decide he wouldnt have raised as such with AA or KK and feel like I should get involved here as I can definitely extract money if the situation arises because he's going to continue to play strongly. OK so Im in this pot now the 10 million dollar question (well not THAT much)...Should I get my money in now or wait and take a flop, and THEN attempt to get the rest of my money in the pot. This is the part of the hand I'd like discussed to the fullest extent, and Im not going to explain the reasoning that I eventually decided on, but I will tell you what I did. ( I will explain WHY in a couple of days)I called his raise and decided that I'd likely fold to any AKQ on the flop unless I got a strong read off of him allowing me to play the hand.Flop: 552 Two spadesI decide that I can't check and give him a free card here, and decide to charge the full amount if he wants to continue his hand and bet the pot. ($72) Without thinking he instantly announces raise pot and with only about $85 I can't feasibly lay this down after deciding it was enough for that original pot bet, and so I call and he has AK of clubs. The river was an ace and I lost the pot, but that isnt the point. The point here is simply this....Should I have gotten my money in preflop, or taken the flop first and THEN commit the rest of my money if I'm still going to do so.

[ahosang]

you played it right. Saw the flop and planned to respect the AKQ. He played badly post-flop. He was a 3-1 dog after the flop, and with no spade, really shouldn't have played. He got lucky. If you get your money in pre-flop, you will probably still be called, and lose the chance to attack on the flop.

[JaysonWeber]

You played it right, Simply because you mentioned this player was on tilt, but still a decent player, with this being said, you can figure him for a pretty good pre-flop hand, just about any hand you put him on after this either beats you or his 2 overcards, coinflip. So you called this, knowing if overcards hit, you will probobly fold your hand here. Playing someone else perhaps you should have played it differently, but this guy you said was one of the weaker players in the game, I always feel its safer to keep it cheap with a weaker player being the only player left in the pot at the time. Good play, bad results, I'd do it everytime though.

[SexyStudThang]

This hand has been discussed in GREAT detail in my LiveJournal at www.livejournal.com/users/sexyStudThang for those interested in a very detailed explanation, but simply put if I wait until the flop I give myself the best EV because there are only 2 cards to come, and I have decided to fold to any overcard Q, K, or A, so any of the high card hands are making a bad play to call me here whereas on the flop they are entirely justified to get their money in.

[srblan]

You made the right play, he played like a donkey. It happens too often, but thank him for calling you as such a huge dog. I like potting it ahead of him on the flop because it shows him that you are not afraid of his two big cards. Another possibility is reraising half the pot or less before the flop to show some strength, but still not enough to commit all of your chips.

[Ebonwoulfe]

The only thing that was wrong was that you lost the pot.If he was thinking (that's a pretty big if) "I have AK, surely if he had a pocket pair he would have reraised me preflop, and if he had a middle pair I could possibly bluff him off the hand right here with nothing left to lose since I'm all in".More than likely he was thinking "He called a big raise preflop, he doesn't have the 5, I'm gonna raise him off it"If you had reraised preflop, he would have got all his chips in (I assume) just as you would have (I assume) and the outcome would have been the same anyway.

[acedude]

I think that this is a very intriguing situation. It makes it quite interesting because this player is basically an unknown to you. Anyways, i think that it is not a bad idea at all to see a flop. Then, like you mentioned, you would respect him if you saw an AKQ. But if not, you can probably make a huge score. Going all-in preflop will leave you with no chance to lay down the hand. Which is very usefull, considering that it is likely he has high cards and could flop a pair. Also, he will probably call your all-in preflop, leaving you to race for all that money. Thanks for posting that one, really enjoyed reading it. Good luck.

[wrto4556]

You played it right. By calling and betting the flop you gave yourself two different way to win the pot: by him folding or by you having the best hand. Obviously he wouldn't lay down AK pre-flop, but maybe he would lay it down on a flop that completely missed him, making your play the correct strategy.