166 replies to this topic

[KowboyKoop]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/base...erpt/index.html


Uh oh.......looks like some pretty hardcore proof about the truth behind Bonds and steroids....I haven't read all of this yet, but from the looks of it.....ouch.

Bonds = Disgrace

[keith crime]

well i'm a bonds fan for some reason

but let's just say i'm as surprised as when george takei came out of the closet

[KowboyKoop]

I ain't saying that this is breaking news....but this is WAY more detailed than anything before about this subject....basically it just confirms for a fact what everybody already knows..he is a cheater and a disgrace to the sport. Was a great player while clean..then threw it away.

[mrdannyg]

i guess this isn't much of a surprise, but it is both welcome and disturbing to see it stated so plainly.

[CrackofmyACE]

No Way! Barry Bonds a steroid user??!

I never believed what they said about him... he's such a stand up guy. Real tolerant guy too.

Thanks for the info!




















is a S/W even necessary?

[keith crime]

i'm not so sure he is a disgrace

1. everyone was doing it
2. gaylord perry is in the hall of fame
3. amphetamine use is even more prominant and just as bad
4. would ty cobb have taken steroids? would pete rose? Read bill james historical abstract he wrote about how Babe Ruth used a corked bat and makes a convincing argument that Ruth would have used steroids too if you extend it to that
5. the beatles used illegal drugs and it helped their music - does that diminish their output - should they be kicked out of the hall of fame and be replaced by Herman's Hermits who did it clean?
6. It makes me diminish Bonds statistics but I don't really buy the disgrace thing - Mark McGuire is ok but Palmero is evil just cuz he got caught
7. If Baseball didn't crack down on it and they didn't - it becomes a personal health choice and a moral issue. If no one is ever arrested for speeding is it really against the law?

It's way too pervasive an issue to demonize one guy - and he is definitely going to be demonized because he is a jerk and people don't want him to get that record. If it had been Cal Ripken people would be falling all over themselves defending him.

Really is Bonds worse than Sosa because his stats are better?

[Randy Reed]

Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:


Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

[mrdannyg]

i'm not so sure he is a disgrace

1. everyone was doing it
2. gaylord perry is in the hall of fame
3. amphetamine use is even more prominant and just as bad
4. would ty cobb have taken steroids? would pete rose? Read bill james historical abstract he wrote about how Babe Ruth used a corked bat and makes a convincing argument that Ruth would have used steroids too if you extend it to that
5. the beatles used illegal drugs and it helped their music - does that diminish their output - should they be kicked out of the hall of fame and be replaced by Herman's Hermits who did it clean?
6. It makes me diminish Bonds statistics but I don't really buy the disgrace thing - Mark McGuire is ok but Palmero is evil just cuz he got caught
7. If Baseball didn't crack down on it and they didn't - it becomes a personal health choice and a moral issue. If no one is ever arrested for speeding is it really against the law?

It's way too pervasive an issue to demonize one guy - and he is definitely going to be demonized because he is a jerk and people don't want him to get that record. If it had been Cal Ripken people would be falling all over themselves defending him.

Really is Bonds worse than Sosa because his stats are better?

are you implying that the beatles are better than herman's hermits?
idiot.



um sw

[ajs510]

Awesome post Brad, I can't wait to read your book when you finish it.

It's a sad state of affairs that the people of this country allow the media to mold and shape the way they think about certain things. A story blows up, it's on every station, and then one side of things, one point of view, becomes the historical record of events.

[nopunk]

i'm not so sure he is a disgrace

1. everyone was doing it

Doesn't make it right.

2. gaylord perry is in the hall of fame
3. amphetamine use is even more prominant and just as bad
4. would ty cobb have taken steroids? would pete rose? Read bill james historical abstract he wrote about how Babe Ruth used a corked bat and makes a convincing argument that Ruth would have used steroids too if you extend it to that

They might have but they didn't--moot point.

5. the beatles used illegal drugs and it helped their music - does that diminish their output - should they be kicked out of the hall of fame and be replaced by Herman's Hermits who did it clean?

It's not against the rules to use drugs in music. Apples to oranges.

6. It makes me diminish Bonds statistics but I don't really buy the disgrace thing - Mark McGuire is ok but Palmero is evil just cuz he got caught

LBJ and Kennedy are ok, but Nixon is a criminal? Same logic applies.

7. If Baseball didn't crack down on it and they didn't - it becomes a personal health choice and a moral issue. If no one is ever arrested for speeding is it really against the law?

It's way too pervasive an issue to demonize one guy - and he is definitely going to be demonized because he is a jerk and people don't want him to get that record. If it had been Cal Ripken people would be falling all over themselves defending him.

Really is Bonds worse than Sosa because his stats are better?

In addition, it's one thing to get caught by the system. But Bonds is so stupid that he admitted to using steriods, but not knowing what they were.

"Ignorance is no excuse."

[CrackofmyACE]

Description of Red Herring
A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
Topic A is under discussion.
Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
Topic A is abandoned.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because merely changing the topic of discussion hardly counts as an argument against a claim.

Who taught you that? Sean Hannity?

[DonkSlayer]

i'm not so sure he is a disgrace

1. everyone was doing it
2. gaylord perry is in the hall of fame
3. amphetamine use is even more prominant and just as bad
4. would ty cobb have taken steroids? would pete rose? Read bill james historical abstract he wrote about how Babe Ruth used a corked bat and makes a convincing argument that Ruth would have used steroids too if you extend it to that
5. the beatles used illegal drugs and it helped their music - does that diminish their output - should they be kicked out of the hall of fame and be replaced by Herman's Hermits who did it clean?
6. It makes me diminish Bonds statistics but I don't really buy the disgrace thing - Mark McGuire is ok but Palmero is evil just cuz he got caught
7. If Baseball didn't crack down on it and they didn't - it becomes a personal health choice and a moral issue. If no one is ever arrested for speeding is it really against the law?

It's way too pervasive an issue to demonize one guy - and he is definitely going to be demonized because he is a jerk and people don't want him to get that record. If it had been Cal Ripken people would be falling all over themselves defending him.

Really is Bonds worse than Sosa because his stats are better?

1) "Everyone" "was". At least we aren't speaking in generalities.
2) So. Did he take steroids? I think people care less about the "illegal drug" part and more about the "illegal PERFORMANCE ENHANCING drug" part.
3)"Just as bad." Way to make a value judgement on illegal drugs. Amphetamines, although hyping you up, are not going to jack you into doubling your HR's
4)"Gee I think others might've done it if they could have?" Yiiiikes. I put you on getting a 5 on your LSAT.
5) Debatable whether it helped their music....and popularity of a band is subjective, # of HR's is empirical
6)No proof that McGuire did steroids..and if it comes out that he did, then we put him back in line too and give it to Sammy. Palmeiro has already been dealt with.
7)This is the most ridiculous, fallacial argument I've ever heard. We are all stupider for reading it and may God have mercy on your soul.

Seriously Keith, what post # is that for you today, 1,000? Time for a vacation from lalaland.

[keith crime]

Honestly though it bums me out that barry is a user just because wow those stats were so incredible

and it doesn't excuse it but hell with what's going on with the country as a whole it really doesn't matter much to me

you guys should read about this amphetamine crackdown and how prevalent it is - this year may be really wild

i think like 95 % play hopped up

I was a huge Kirby fan and look what happened - he was a god - they tore him down and made him a devil - he just died and he's a god again

[nopunk]

1) "Everyone" "was". At least we aren't speaking in generalities.
2) So. Did he take steroids? I think people care less about the "illegal drug" part and more about the "illegal PERFORMANCE ENHANCING drug" part.
3)"Just as bad." Way to make a value judgement on illegal drugs. Amphetamines, although hyping you up, are not going to jack you into doubling your HR's
4)"Gee I think others might've done it if they could have?" Yiiiikes. I put you on getting a 5 on your LSAT.
5) Debatable whether it helped their music....and popularity of a band is subjective, # of HR's is empirical
6)No proof that McGuire did steroids..and if it comes out that he did, then we put him back in line too and give it to Sammy. Palmeiro has already been dealt with.
7)This is the most ridiculous, fallacial argument I've ever heard. We are all stupider for reading it and may God have mercy on your soul.

Seriously Keith, what post # is that for you today, 1,000? Time for a vacation from lalaland.

Very nice post.

You owned me at pointing out the rediculousness of that entire post.

But I beat you to it.

[DonkSlayer]

Very nice post.

You owned me at pointing out the rediculousness of that entire post.

But I beat you to it.

OK I'll chop with you then.

[keith crime]

1) "Everyone" "was". At least we aren't speaking in generalities. [color=#3366FF] - if 50% are cheating are they all crooks or is the game crooked? if 50 % cheat is bonds the worst cuz he has the best numbers - dude has the best numbers because he is the best talent on the drugs



2) So. Did he take steroids? I think people care less about the "illegal drug" part and more about the "illegal PERFORMANCE ENHANCING drug" part. - amphetamines enhance performance and 90% did them - and they are Illegal - why is taking a pill worse than throwing a spitter?


3)"Just as bad." Way to make a value judgement on illegal drugs. Amphetamines, although hyping you up, are not going to jack you into doubling your HR's - so its ok to take an illegal drug that makes you a little better not a lot better?

4)"Gee I think others might've done it if they could have?" Yiiiikes. I put you on getting a 5 on your LSAT. - Babe Ruth drank when it was illegal and used a corked bat - Would you tell your kids - look the beatles didn't do ecstasy - if it had been around they clearly would have

5) Debatable whether it helped their music....and popularity of a band is subjective, # of HR's is empirical - Check out the rock and roll hall of fame and tell me what percent didn't make classic albums on drugs - in fact try to name one?

6)No proof that McGuire did steroids..and if it comes out that he did, then we put him back in line too and give it to Sammy. Palmeiro has already been dealt with. - So bonds is more guilty than Mac because he got caught - do you honestly think mac is clean - do you think george takei is straight


7)This is the most ridiculous, fallacial argument I've ever heard. We are all stupider for reading it and may God have mercy on your soul. - Please you are totally wrong - If Baseball doesn't crack down hard on steroids then some people will use them - if some people use them - then everyone has to or the only ones left will be the users - thus it makes you have to take them to play - Had baseball dealt with this 10 years ago it wouldn't be an issue but they made tons of money on the homer races - Last time I checked its been a hell of a long time since Ben Johson!!!

[Hobbes]

2) So. Did he take steroids? I think people care less about the "illegal drug" part and more about the "illegal PERFORMANCE ENHANCING drug" part.
3)"Just as bad." Way to make a value judgement on illegal drugs. Amphetamines, although hyping you up, are not going to jack you into doubling your HR's

Please do not take this as a defense for Barry Bonds, but what do we know about how steroids enhances performance versus how amphetamines enhance performance?

A list of some guys who have tested positive for steroids:

Alex Sanchez
Jorge Piedra
Jamal Strong
Rafael Palmeiro
Matt Lawton

[keith crime]

Let me ask you guys a serious question

If you were the best baseball player in America - and you saw yourselves being surpassed by cheaters - would you be honest and be tenth best or take drugs to compete with the others?

Oh and in 1921 when half the country drank - were they all horrible criminals? When it was repealed - were they suddenly upstanding citizens again?

[KowboyKoop]

To all those who are using the "well everyone was doing it" argument...please show me where it says that Bonds was the only one doing it and that he was the only person who should be punished for it. EVERYONE who used steroids and who cheated should be talked about and punished and such. You guys are all bringing up outside information about different stuff....when the point is....Bonds was a good player who then decided to take illegal steroids and saw his homerun totals go up dramatically. He cheated, bottom line, and everyone in baseball knows it for a fact now. It is an undeniable fact, and that is all anyone is saying. Noone is saying he should be banned forever from baseball or anything like that, just saying that it should be acknowledged as a primary reason for a lot of his recent homerun records and such.

[keith crime]

No problem Koop but did any of you see the ESPN column where the columnist looked at every high home run total and found almost all of them bogus for one reason or another

Ruth didn't play against Blacks
Maris and many others were in expansion seasons

Bonds records need to be adjusted definitely but I bet so do numbers 2-10 in his era -

Look at John Belushi - was he a worse drug abuser than robin williams just because he died - in all likelihood robin was lucky and he would admit it