9 replies to this topic

[Wily]

hey again - so another hand that I'd like some comments about. 18-player $5 SNG on Full Tilt again, I have 2500, big stack to my left has about 4500, with 25-50 blinds. I'm dealt A 5 . I limp from mid position, he raises to 150 from the button, I call him, only us in the hand.Flop comes 3 4 6 . I bet 250, he thinks for a while and goes all in. Do I have the outs to call? I figure him for either a bluff or an overpair, but I'm hoping if I hit an ace it can still beat it. Plus, I feel that I needed a monster stack to have a reasonable chance of getting into final 3. So I call. He has 10 10 , but the turn is 7 , river Q , and I take the hand down plus the #1 position (still in the game right now).I wouldnt do this in a ring game since it's close to 50-50, but is this correct at this point in the tourney? Thanks.YLi

[Vade]

Absolutely.You have 18 outs (assuming you didn't put your opponent on AA)3 A's, 9 Clubs, 3 other 2's and 3 other 7'sWith 2 cards to come, you'll hit your hand close to 70% of the time.ETA: In a cash game, unless you put your opponent on AA you also have to make this call.Heck, even against AA, you still will improve almost 60% of the time, with 15 outs

[wrto4556]

In a cash game you make this call all day...but not in a tournament. You are a 60% favorite against TT. You don't risk your life on a 60% odd...not in a tournament. Not this early, anyway.Do you know why?

[Wily]

wrto4556 said:

In a cash game you make this call all day...but not in a tournament. You are a 60% favorite against TT. You don't risk your life on a 60% odd...not in a tournament. Not this early, anyway.Do you know why?

I can definitely see your argument about preserving my tournament life, and even I bet 250 on the flop and he raised all in, I still had about 1900 chips left. But at what point in a tournament does one take a chance to vastly improve in position? I ended up in the money with 18 players because of the chip lead I got from attacking the big stack successfully, and I might have lost with preflop all in with AK vs JJ or something with worse odds than I had on that flop. Or was it too early in the tournament to take an all in risk? I'm not sure - more comments to this nature would be interesting.

[Absolute]

I don't think a call is good here, because I don't think you usually have 18 outs.You are lucky he had 10-10.What if he had 3-3, 4-4, or 6-6. He was the button and the big stack, he could have any of those hands.So let's say he flopped a set.Now look at your outs.8 Clubs (3 pairs the board.)3 2's3 7'sis 14 outs a good enough draw to call all your chips when you are head's up?naw

[wrto4556]

Wily said:

I can definitely see your argument about preserving my tournament life.... But at what point in a tournament does one take a chance to vastly improve in position?

That's a good question.When you have accumulated alot of chips and are up against a smaller stack would be a good time to take a risk. Once you are past the bubble and the "all-in" period directly afterward, would be another good time.You're first main goal is to make the money with a decent size stack. Then it should be to win the tournament. You have to take risks to win the tournament.So, you should try extremely hard not to risk all, or most, of your chips without a big lead in the hand until you have accumulated a chip lead or are into the money, IMO. And of coarse, the short stack exception. Having said that, I, personally, try to play a loose/aggressive style without risking all of my chips. It's hard to do, but seems to be the best way to go about winning a tournament...again, IMO.

[JaysonWeber]

wrto4556 said:

Wily said:

I can definitely see your argument about preserving my tournament life.... But at what point in a tournament does one take a chance to vastly improve in position?

That's a good question.When you have accumulated alot of chips and are up against a smaller stack would be a good time to take a risk. Once you are past the bubble and the "all-in" period directly afterward, would be another good time.You're first main goal is to make the money with a decent size stack. Then it should be to win the tournament. You have to take risks to win the tournament.So, you should try extremely hard not to risk all, or most, of your chips without a big lead in the hand until you have accumulated a chip lead or are into the money, IMO. And of coarse, the short stack exception. Having said that, I, personally, try to play a loose/aggressive style without risking all of my chips. It's hard to do, but seems to be the best way to go about winning a tournament...again, IMO.

Argh... damnit WRTO Its about time you let me answer these questions first... bloody hell... anyways yes this is about what you should think through your head during a tournament.The only thing I would disagree with here is after the bubble, unless you're very short... I have found that being aggresive while there are 10 spots or so left before the bubble is actually smart if you're looking to place high.This is where people are timid because they want to make the money, if you can pick up a lot of chips here you're +EV on the decision because your going to catapult yourself in the goverall standings. when people play scared, you should play aggresive. After the bubble, if I have enough chips, I will tighten up a bit and let the lower stacks knock each other out, picking my spots to join in the frey....Remember, protect your stack and don't even go in with 60-40 flips unless you have to... I fold SO many hands I'd play in a cash game early in a tournament...

[KramitDaToad]

The advise above is good.The call here is a yes for cash, no for tourney.A better way to play this hand would have been to check the flop and allow him to bet. It probably would have been a pot sized bet of around 600.From there you can set him all in. Whilst you still have all your chips in the middle, the risk has been reduced as it would be a hard call for him to make and there is a good chance he would lay down giving you a tidy pot without a showdown.It's likely to be a safe move as this flop doesn't help a pre flop raiser, however if he can't make a sensible laydown then you still have your 15+ outs to fall back on - kinda reassuring!If he doesn't come with a pot sized bet, but goes all in on the flop then you can get away from your hand at no extra cost, because from a tournament perspective you only have Ace high

[Absolute]

no you are all wrongyou fold in a cash gameyou fold in a tournament

[wrto4556]

Absolute said:

no you are all wrongyou fold in a cash gameyou fold in a tournament