The Dreaded Turn C/r

[econ_tim 0]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: econ_tim is UTG with 7 :icon_suit_diamond: , 7 :icon_suit_club: . econ_tim raises, 2 folds, BB calls.Flop: (4.33 SB) K :icon_suit_diamond: , 8 :icon_suit_spade: , 8 :icon_suit_club: (2 players)BB checks, econ_tim bets, BB calls.Turn: (3.16 BB) 6 :icon_suit_diamond: (2 players)BB checks, econ_tim bets, BB raises, econ_tim calls.River: (7.16 BB) 9 :icon_suit_heart: (2 players)BB bets, econ_tim calls.Final Pot: 9.16 BB villain c/r-ed me on a turn a few hands ago and i foldedalso, a more general problem. i'm pretty wary of turn raises and check-raises at this level and usually fold with less than TP2K. any general advice on deciding when to call down even when you don't have a read that villain is tricky?

[screech 0]

Hey tim,I think that calling down after the turn is a really bad play based on your read (or lack thereof).In regards to your general question, start randomly calling down players who you think are tricky. Not all the time, just a bit more than you normally do, and see how your results are.

[pokerkid 0]

In regards to your general question, start randomly calling down players who you think are tricky. Not all the time, just a bit more than you normally do, and see how your results are.

Wouldn't that be a terrible, results oriented way of trying to improve your game?

[econ_tim 0]

Wouldn't that be a terrible, results oriented way of trying to improve your game?

evaluating the play of a particular hand based on its results is dangerous.evaluating the play of many hands based on a results is instructive.since i live dangerously, i'll let you know that villain had 44 this hand.

[pokerkid 0]

I'm just warning (not that you or Screech need to be warned) that just cuz you see a lot of bluff raises on turn over the next 1,000 hands, don't lose value in the future by calling down w/ crap.

[KramitDaToad 0]

Calling down offers slightly better than 7-2, which probably means you need to win this about 25% of the time4-handed I think this is a 6, diamond draw or bluff often enough to call downEdit: Saw the results and realised I left out smaller PP from the aboveYou get meta-game benefits here from showing down too.

[screech 0]

I'm just warning (not that you or Screech need to be warned) that just cuz you see a lot of bluff raises on turn over the next 1,000 hands, don't lose value in the future by calling down w/ crap.

The point I was trying to make was that I have no idea how often he should call down. It's very game/player dependent. If you feel you are getting check/raised more often than you should be on the turn, you should start calling down lighter, some of the time. If you start calling down with weak hands 100% of the time, you'll get owned. If you find your hands are holding up more often than needed, than you can start calling more with your weaker hands. Eventually, you'll find the optimum frequency for calling down wiht weak hands, and you'll get a better feel for who to call down against. The end result, you handle these tricky situations much better.

[Actuary 3]

I fold the turn.I may not be ready for SH 3/6I'm not joking

[econ_tim 0]

I fold the turn.I may not be ready for SH 3/6I'm not joking

folding the turn is the standard playeven against someone who like to bluff raise, you shouldn't call here all the time because sometimes they have 8x.i think calling down with my hand 1/3rd of the time would be OK.

[Actuary 3]

when you play lots of differnet opponents, does mixing in a call down x% matter? Or do you look at each paly as isolated? Of course if same opponents for 300 hands in session, that's different. Guess I'm asknig if the tecniques in TOP (which I hae only skimmed) apply to isolated events or only to those that will have some history/future with you?I think I"m answering my own question, I"ll bow out now....

[econ_tim 0]

when you play lots of differnet opponents, does mixing in a call down x% matter? Or do you look at each paly as isolated? Of course if same opponents for 300 hands in session, that's different. Guess I'm asknig if the tecniques in TOP (which I hae only skimmed) apply to isolated events or only to those that will have some history/future with you?I think I"m answering my own question, I"ll bow out now....

if i work out the correct % to call on the turn assuming my opponent is bluffing with optimal frequency, then the best move someone can make against me will have 0 EV. but if i know that an opponent is bluffing too often or too little, then i can make more money by changing how often i call down. so against a complete unknown, i can use a game theoretic strategy and be fine.although, at 3/6 the average unknown is probably not bluffing the turn enough, so i should fold more than i would against an expert player.