Jump to content


Teaching/education In The Us


  • Please log in to reply
39 replies to this topic

#21 wvapoker

wvapoker

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 79 posts

Posted 28 February 2006 - 06:58 AM

Have you noticed that none of the educator replies addresses the point I made about their degrees being easy to get...At least to be a secondary teacher you must have a degree in the area you teach. i.e.: Math degree for a math teacher. Is this education's dirty little secret?

#22 RndTblKnght

RndTblKnght

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 26 posts

Posted 28 February 2006 - 08:44 AM

View Postsniper, on Monday, February 27th, 2006, 10:52 AM, said:

A couple of comments from a dad with two kids in elementary school...Thank God for John Stossel and the piece he did on the current state of education in America. Very rare for the liberal media to present a story such as this.We all scratch our heads and say there is no easy fix, when in fact the easy fix was used as an example in the story. Adopt the policies that are used at the school that spends $3000 per child, and you have your answer.Lastly, I'm in favor of public education, and certainly appreciate everything teachers do for our kids, however, in an era of 1-2 percent inflation, why is it that schools need 8-10 percent budget increases every year? The rest of us get by on cost of living increases, heck, pilots are taking 40 percent pay CUTS to keep airlines afloat, yet teachers always whine that they are underpaid.The Superintendant in my school district gets over $150K per year, plus health club memberships, huge car allowances, etc. etc. etc...Yes, it's an important job, but that's more than the Governor of my state gets.You knew the deal when you signed up, so THANK YOU to the teachers out there who love their jobs and feel adequetely compensated!
I will agree with you on one point and disagree with you on another. I do agree with you that teachers know what they are getting into when they go to teach, but I also believe that they are underpaid. My wife doesn't ever complain about this because she knew what she was getting into and she felt it was her calling. She doesnt work from 8:00 am to 3:30 PM and then go home. She is there after hours grading papers and having confrences with parents or the faculty she answers to. She puts in her best effort every day and it shows in her students. After the insurance and mandatory government savings program (5%of her pay) that she will never see unless she spends at least 7 years teaching in the same state and our insurance and taxes, she brings home a cool $1800 per month. She has no car or club memberships that she gets for her job. I dont think that those poor pilots who took their pay cuts are living off this amount. I am in no way complaining, but it bugs me when people say that teachers aren't underpaid. She feels adequately compensated by seeing results in her students; but is she and the other teachers who actually give a damn undercompensated financially, ABSOLUTELY!!!!Best Wishers,RTK
"...make war on them until you have wiped them out" 1 Samuel 15:18(b)

#23 therrinn

therrinn

    Hi, I'm Pat.

  • Members
  • 1,513 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Loop

Posted 28 February 2006 - 10:40 AM

Quite a few points about the education thing:1) Those international comparison tests are very sketchy.People often cite them, but fail to mention that the samples being chosen from numerous countries (including the U.S., actually) are not statistically random samples. Furthermore, different countries may perform very differently on different levels depending on what aspects are emphasised (for example, in math, many countries that do well on algebra do poorly on geometry)2) Money matters/Money doesn't matter. This debate has been going on for decades, with the concensus switching sides a couple of times. The only thing that is clear is that most places that get more money don't use it very well.3) NCLB. I think there are tons of problems with this regulation. The theory that accountability through high stakes testing will motivate teachers to increase performance is ridiculous - it is only logically sound if we assume that teachers weren't motivated to do well before the law. I also have huge problems with it for using tests for different purposes from which they were intended, as well as for creating pretty much the largest lake wobegon effect imaginiable. 4) School choice. This generally is nowhere near as good an idea in practice as it seems to be in theory. The effects of competition have been marginal. As for charter schools, this episode you saw must have been just about the most biased piece of tv ever shown on anything short of fox news. Charter schools in general underperform compared to regular schools. There are numerous exceptions, especially ones funded and supported by local universities, but in general you can not say that charter schools are doing better than regular schools.

#24 malfunktron

malfunktron

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 7 posts

Posted 28 February 2006 - 02:26 PM

View Postwvapoker, on Tuesday, February 28th, 2006, 6:58 AM, said:

Have you noticed that none of the educator replies addresses the point I made about their degrees being easy to get...At least to be a secondary teacher you must have a degree in the area you teach. i.e.: Math degree for a math teacher. Is this education's dirty little secret?
Not sure what you are talking about. I teach US history and my bachelor's degree is in US history. I also had to have a certain number of credits in sociology, psychology, political science, and economics to be certified to teach "social studies." The degree was not easy to get and graduate school to get my master's degree wasnt the breeze you are talking about. My research thesis was over 200 pages at Ohio State. So what exactly are you talking about?If you speaking about elementary school...is it really possible to have a degree in every subject they teach?

#25 princeof56k

princeof56k

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,520 posts
  • Location:houston, tx

Posted 28 February 2006 - 03:47 PM

View PostPrtyPSux, on Tuesday, February 28th, 2006, 2:45 AM, said:

just to give you a comparison on the different types of schooling, here are the websites to my two Highschools:My HS in MexicoSchool in the USI think they speak for themselves.
Are you trying to compare public to private schools here? It looks like the school you went to in Mexico was a private school (actually it looked better than that).

#26 TrueFX

TrueFX

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 127 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:OK

Posted 28 February 2006 - 10:54 PM

Why does everyone think paying teachers more will fix the problem ?! Teachers already make a minimum of 30K a year to start. Sure, that isn't as much as a doctor or executive, but it is a starting salary. Teachers are GUARANTEED raises every year regardless of skill level. Teachers can not get fired. Teachers also get 3 months of paid vacation PLUS all school holidays off. Now on top of that, they also do not work 8 hours a day anymore in most places. More and more schools are changing over to the block schedule with 4 two hour classes per day, and one of those blocks is spent in the Teachers Lounge. So in essence, teachers are paid their salary for 180 - 6 hour work days. I know, I know, they have to grade papers and all kinds of other things, but once a teacher has been in the same subject for two years, it is all the same thing, same lesson plans, same Scan-Trons, etc...Another problem with American education is the education of its educators. I went to a 4 year university that had 60% of its students in the Education Program. Let me give you a run down how half of those people wound up in the Education Program... The Engineering Student would flunk out of Engineering and change his track to Math. This student would then flunk out of math and realize that he only needs a few more education credits to become a math teacher and be guaranteed a job upon graduation with benefits and lots of holidays. Now this student has absolutely no interest in becoming a math teacher yet sees it as an easy out. I am speaking from experience here. Almost all of my friends followed this path as well as a lot of their acquaintances in the program.As far as the education in this program, the department consisted of the same group of teachers it had the past 30 years as they all had tenure and no reason to leave (don't even get me started on tenure / education). Sooooo since ALL the tests, projects, and group work had rarely changed if at all, the cheating was rampant. There were copies of every exam and project assignment all over campus, and if for some reason you couldn't find one, just ask a TA for it, they would be happy to see you pass with flying colors.So now, you have a person with little interest in actually teaching wanting a raise ?! You've got to be kidding! As others have mentioned, salaries should be dependant on merit! If you are good at what you do, you get paid better. This is of course a "professional" position as many others have mentioned and should be treated as such versus a government job where you can't get fired and are guaranteed raises no matter what.I have more friends than I can count that are currently teachers, as well as 2 of them that are principals. My principal friends are always coming to me with stories about how helpless they are when it comes to incompetent / lazy teachers. Both friends have employed the same strategy: make the teacher as uncomfortable as possible and give them a rave recommendation when another school calls for a reference on them. They can do nothing more than pass the horrible teachers off to other unsuspecting schools. I understand teaching is a difficult job, but so is mine, and yes I WANT MORE MONEY. But how do I do that?! I get side jobs, I expand my knowledge / skills, etc... I don't tell the government that I deserve it. Yes, as with everything, there are exceptions to the things that I have posted, but after being so close to our education system, it is hardly the salary that is the problem here.One funny thing I read not too long ago in the local paper, only 37% of all High School Teachers in our area could pass the state tests given to the students. That is sad, the people teaching our students don't even know the material!To sum it up, money is not to blame, lack of educated educators and motivated people in the field hurt it more than anything. Parents, that is a whole issue in itself!

#27 dlingdling

dlingdling

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 527 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California
  • Interests:Freestyle Frisbee, photography

Posted 01 March 2006 - 07:10 AM

>Why does everyone think paying teachers more will fix the problem ?! Because paying teachers a professional salary recognizes that society is entrusting its future generation to them. Because paying teachers a professional salary acknowledges that they should not only be able to pay their rent - $30k a year doesn't break even in most metropolitan areas - but that they should have some possibility of owning a home somewhere within 50 miles of their job. Teachers do not get guaranteed pay raises. In my district, there were no raises from 2001 to this school year. Most raises are earned by professional development and they are miniscule.Teachers do not work a 6 hour day. Most teachers arrive around 7:30 and leave at 4 or later. They get 30 minutes for lunch. That's a full work day. They don't get water cooler/football talk/goofing off on the internet time. On their prep time, they don't sit around the teacher's lounge. They are preparing for their classes - making reams of photocopies, deciphering the ridiculously organized "approved" textbooks - or following up on previous classes. Nurturing students takes more than classtime. Any assignment needs to be evaluated to make sure the student is on track. Absences need to be followed-up with families. There are also committees that each teacher participates in for curriculum and professional development. And in school districts like mine, there are sometimes situations of familial abuse, and we are required to confront those.Lesson plans are not the same year to year, and NCLB is one of the reasons. It actually serves the students when teachers can get into a groove and do lessons on autopilot, because they can focus more on the students as people. The best learning happens with a personal connection to the child rather than through rote test preparation.When I read these emails criticizing the education system, there is so much underlying hostility, resentment of the teaching industry for some reason. Parental involvement and really horrible home lives are probably more of a contributor to any problems in education. I wish this hostility would be directed toward more pressing problems that are actually tearing this country apart.There is an excellent summary and critique of NCLB at Wikipedia. Documentation of the underfunding and the many unrelated provisions attached to it, like the requirement that schools allow the Boy Scouts on campus and the requirement of high schools to turn over private information to the military for recruiters. It's a monstrous law. I wish America's leaders were brave enough to admit their mistakes and try for something better.
Mandatory rakeback link.

#28 Cooker

Cooker

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 26 posts
  • Location:Champaign, IL
  • Interests:Physics, Poker, Video Games,

Posted 01 March 2006 - 09:14 AM

View Postkamikaze, on Sunday, February 26th, 2006, 1:05 PM, said:

RE: teachers unions. Everybody loves to blame teachers unions for all the woes of the educational system. What is always left out of the picture is why the unions exist. Teachers are seriously underpaid and not respected at all. I appreciate the notion of competition, but the answer is not to make the same teachers who are underpaid, overworked, have too many students, and so on have to take on MORE.
How long have we had teachers' unions? Are teachers still underpaid? I think it is you that doesn't understand why unions exist.

#29 zimmer4141

zimmer4141

    GO BLUE

  • Members
  • 15,007 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ann Arbor, MI
  • Interests:Hockey, Golf

Posted 02 March 2006 - 09:28 PM

Again, from a student's perspective, the tenure system is the absolute worst system ever devised in the history of anything. Last year, I had a great AP Government teacher, but he had only been teaching for a couple years. He came up with great projects, spent time out of class, and our class got the best results on the AP test in almost 10 years. So budget cut time came again, and they had to move people around the school district. So the teacher with tenure who I had for US History stays around when she does nothing but assign reading and shove her liberal rhetoric down her classes' throats. And the new guy? He's now doing god knows what at the Adult Education center, basically teaching all the thugs and lowlifes of our town. Seriously, this system needs to be done away with if we want our schools to improve.
Hail To the Victors Valiant
Hail To the Conquering Heroes
Hail Hail To Michigan
The Leaders and Best

#30 endo

endo

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 25 posts
  • Location:Seattle, WA
  • Interests:Music, Hockey, Fighting

Posted 02 March 2006 - 09:56 PM

I would like to see a reallocation of the money that goes into a public school system. Like, switch the Administrators' salaries with the much more important Teaching jobs. I seem to recall the dean at my high school owning a jet, and she didn't do a damn thing. It's a similar (although much worse in the education industry) ailment of corporations I've worked for - too top-heavy with managers and analyzers and report-makers that don't really do anything, and not enough going into actually creating a quality product.If it were up to me, becoming a public teacher would be about as difficult as becoming a doctor, and they'd be paid about the same as doctors. I think this one change would drastically improve the entire world.

#31 blueodum

blueodum

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 977 posts
  • Location:Toronto

Posted 03 March 2006 - 01:38 AM

How long have we had teachers' unions? Are teachers still underpaid? I think it is you that doesn't understand why unions exist.Don't the unions ever strike? Traditionally that's been the way unions get higher salaries for their members.If there isn't a credible threat to strike (which means there has to have been actual strikes at some point in the past) the bargaining power of unions dissipates.To sum it up, money is not to blame, lack of educated educators and motivated people in the field hurt it more than anything.Why do you think so many unmotivated and uneducated people go into teaching? Don't you think that if the salary was much higher better quality people would be competing for those jobs instead? For example, if teacher's college was as tough as medical school to get through and they were paid 100 grand starting salary, don't you think there would be a fair number of highly-qualified people going for the job?It's because the job is tough and the pay is low that the teachers are of poor quality. And there are still teacher shortages despite it all.
"You shouldn't even care whether you win the pot. You should only care about making the correct decisions. Making quality decisions is the only thing you get paid for in poker." - Mike Caro

#32 Cooker

Cooker

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 26 posts
  • Location:Champaign, IL
  • Interests:Physics, Poker, Video Games,

Posted 03 March 2006 - 08:30 AM

View Postblueodum, on Friday, March 3rd, 2006, 1:38 AM, said:

How long have we had teachers' unions? Are teachers still underpaid? I think it is you that doesn't understand why unions exist.Don't the unions ever strike? Traditionally that's been the way unions get higher salaries for their members.
If the purpose of the teachers' unions is to raise salaries, and virtually ALL teachers still feel underpaid, then clearly the unions are not performing this task.The truth of the matter is that unions simply insure that everyone gets exactly the average salary no matter what the qualifications or performance. They also insure that raises are based solely on seniority, because coincidentally those in charge of the unions are most senior. They also make it exceedingly difficult to remove poor performers.Without unions, the best teachers would probably make much more than they do now and the above average teachers would make somewhat more than they do now. The merely average and below average would make less and some would probably be fired to pay the higher salaries of the better teachers.Of course, the union is not the only problem. The whole administration level needs to be streamlined. It probably uses the majority of money in any given district and has less value to the students than the cafeteria workers. This is why you can't throw money at the problem to fix it. All the money ends up in worthless bureacracy. However, the unions are even somewhat to blame for this. Administration is made up of teachers fed up with not getting paid what they are worth and so they look for a way out of the communist system created by the unions and end up "moving up" into administration. It is no coincidence that administrators negotiate contracts individually and are not unionized. Its funny really. They are less useful and less needed, but they make much more money, get better healthcare plans, and have no union "protecting" them. It is shocking how many people miss the totally obvious.

#33 blueodum

blueodum

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 977 posts
  • Location:Toronto

Posted 03 March 2006 - 12:07 PM

If the purpose of the teachers' unions is to raise salaries, and virtually ALL teachers still feel underpaid, then clearly the unions are not performing this task.Well of course. Solution - get stronger unions.If there were no teacher's unions, what you'd see is schools hiring university students and other underqualified people at half the wages of current teachers. Why? Because they would have severe shortages of teachers , worse than now, and they'd be reduced to hiring warm bodies.I worked in ESL for 6 months at a private firm (In Canada) - no union. While people in unionized jobs were getting 30 bucks an hour doing similar work, I was getting 10.
"You shouldn't even care whether you win the pot. You should only care about making the correct decisions. Making quality decisions is the only thing you get paid for in poker." - Mike Caro

#34 chrozzo

chrozzo

    hi™

  • Members
  • 23,051 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Geico

Posted 03 March 2006 - 01:08 PM

my 8th grade physics teacher was hot
FCP CBO: Chief Beer Officer

I'm kind of a big deal.




#35 MasterLJ

MasterLJ

    Bus Fare Gambler

  • Members
  • 2,576 posts

Posted 03 March 2006 - 02:14 PM

View PostDanielNegreanu, on Sunday, February 26th, 2006, 2:42 PM, said:

Thanks for your post. I'm curious, just thinking about how things work, don't you feel that the GOOD teachers who are VASTLY underpaid suffer because of the teacher's who don't do a good job? I agree with you 100% that teacher's don't make enough money at all. What I'd like to see, is a system where if teachers like yourself, who DO work hard, have an opportunity to move up the pay scale. Maybe, this is just a thought, start teachers out at a lower yearly income and then give them significant raises as they prove themselves? For those that don't qualify for the raises, great. They'll be forced out of the profession since they won't be making enough money, and thus the weeding process begins. I just think it is a HORRIBLE mistake in this country for teachers to have no financial interest in doing a good job. It's just not the "American Way."
Teachers do have opportunities to move up the payscale, but the problem is that teachers move up in grade to do so. A first grade teacher has very little choice on where they can go to up their payscale if they want to remain first grade teachers. This means all of our best teachers are in our higher grades... where they are less necessary. Our children are not being taught to read and write early enough.Our top-heavy education system favors the self-starters. It's not a bad thing. In fact, there is an overwhelming sense of entitlement in this country that I'm sure you (Daniel) can relate to being from a different country and having parents from a different country as well. In that sense our current system is good. It's not fair, but our system has designed a template that best prepares entrepeneurs with higher education.
Me Blog (Updated: **12/22/2006**)


#36 cu in 4years Dan

cu in 4years Dan

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 2,276 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Holdem, Ohama, Razz, Lowball, 7 card stud

Posted 07 March 2006 - 10:47 PM

lol i watched 20 20 on sky news one night and forgot it was the one daniel was talking about. he ruined the whole show for me lol jks.

#37 chrozzo

chrozzo

    hi™

  • Members
  • 23,051 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Geico

Posted 07 March 2006 - 11:10 PM

my teacher done learned me super good
FCP CBO: Chief Beer Officer

I'm kind of a big deal.




#38 TheMathProf

TheMathProf

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 571 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle
  • Favorite Poker Game:SNGs, MTTs, low-limit cash

Posted 11 March 2006 - 08:44 AM

View PostCooker, on Friday, March 3rd, 2006, 8:30 AM, said:

It is no coincidence that administrators negotiate contracts individually and are not unionized. Its funny really. They are less useful and less needed, but they make much more money, get better healthcare plans, and have no union "protecting" them. It is shocking how many people miss the totally obvious.
I know in our area, the administrators actually are unionized.Also, in Illinois (where I see you're from, and I know this is especially true in the Chicago suburbs), teachers actually have the opportunity to get paid something (I've seen six figure salaries out there). We've had a large number of teachers leave our area to go out there to get some significantly improved benefits over what they get here in the Pacific NW. And my retirement benefits from Wisconsin from my brief stint there are amazing.

#39 gkunit20

gkunit20

    Professor Backwards

  • Members
  • 11,262 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Desolation Row

Posted 13 March 2006 - 03:41 PM

I have a question:Why is it when a student does bad it's the student's fault, but when a student does good, it's because of the teacher?

#40 TheMathProf

TheMathProf

    Poker Forum Groupie

  • Members
  • 571 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Seattle
  • Favorite Poker Game:SNGs, MTTs, low-limit cash

Posted 09 April 2006 - 08:06 PM

View Postgkunit20, on Monday, March 13th, 2006, 4:41 PM, said:

I have a question:Why is it when a student does bad it's the student's fault, but when a student does good, it's because of the teacher?
[thread necromancy]It depends on the students, of course. I have a couple of my students in AP Calculus that are auto-fives unless I **** them up with my teaching, and I take absolutely no credit for their results other than to say, "Indeed, I did not **** them up."Besides, I thought NCLB was making it very clear that when a student does bad, it is the teacher's/administrator's/school's/district's fault entirely and has nothing to do with individual student accountability, and that when a student does well, it's because we've finally given children the education they so desperately need and deserve.
"You can pretend to be smart, but you can't pretend to be witty."
Sacha Guitry




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users