11 replies to this topic

[rocko44]

Howdy folks, I was hoping for some thoughts (brutal honesty appreciated).Any way I could get away from this hand? (It was at Empire's daily FreeRoll - wussy stuff, I know, but it's fun, and I use it to work on my game without worrying about my bankroll).A few notes before we delve into the hand itself: I had seen one flop in nearly eighteen minutes prior to this. My hole cards were more pathetic than Ashlee Simpson on SNL.Total number of players : 9 Seat 1: XParadox ( $925 )Seat 2: gooey333 ( $2360 )Seat 3: capelopez ( $6855 )Seat 4: Bet_Em_High2 ( $1040 )Seat 5: the1shawnwon ( $950 )Seat 7: JustFold ( $935 )Seat 8: jm94185 ( $6245 )Seat 9: bogus2k ( $540 )Seat 10: RayLWillock ( $1205 )Trny:9903826 Level:1Blinds (10/15)** Dealing down cards **Dealt to XParadox [ Qd Jd ]gooey333 calls [15].capelopez folds.Bet_Em_High2 calls [15].the1shawnwon folds.XParadox: holy canoliJustFold calls [15].jm94185 folds.bogus2k folds.tnrallen has joined the table.Player tnrallen has been moved from $500 Daily FreeRoll(230374) Table #39 table RayLWillock calls [5].XParadox checks.Now facing four limpers, should I put in a raise here? Queen/Jack isn't a 'great' hand, but in retrospect, this was probably the beginning of my downfall.** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, 4s, Qh ]Woohoo! Top pair, decent kicker. I bet about the size of the pot.RayLWillock checks.XParadox bets [60].gooey333 folds.Bet_Em_High2 calls [60].Quick-call here, I put them on a draw.JustFold folds.RayLWillock folds.** Dealing Turn ** [ Th ]XParadox bets [200].Bet_Em_High2 calls [200].Here's where the warning bells should've started ringing. They still haven't hit their draw, that I can see, so what could I be up against?** Dealing River ** [ 3c ]Hmm.. are they playing A/2? ... I suppose it's possible, especially since I didn't raise preflop. But Hell's handwagons, let's go ahead and line up the firing squad! XParadox is all-In [650]Bet_Em_High2 calls [650].XParadox shows [ Qd, Jd ] a pair of queens.Bet_Em_High2 shows [ 5d, 5h ] three of a kind, fives.... Ouch. Should I have smelled this? They got me to dig my own grave, dive in, THEN fill it in for them afterwards. Strong play on their part or pathetic on my part? I'm hoping a little bit of both.Thoughts?

[NormanHaupt]

I felt bad reading and not replying.While I'm not an NL expert by any means, it looks as if he was playing you like a 2 dollar banjo.

[Smasharoo]

Thoughts?You learn a better kesson if he beats you with KQ.

[ahosang]

In NL, whether tournie or ring games, avoid getting trapped for a large portion of your chips with a very, very marginal hand. The lesson Smasharoo is talking about is that even without a set, he could easily have you beat(by an unspectacular hand such as KQ). I think the flop bet is OK. After him calling, you assumed throughout the rest of the hand that he was drawing when in fact he had you drawing dead after you didn't improve on the turn. Learn to check-fold some of these marginal hands in early stages(it was level 1), or at the very least call down for smaller bets. If you'd have bet 100 turn and weak-lead the river(you are weak, after all), you would have saved some chips when he would have raised you. If the turn was a J giving you top 2 pair then I would have been happy with your bets as it's always unlucky to run into a set. But all your chips for 1 pair?Betting all your chips with one pair in early tournie stages is not a good idea for long-term effectiveness. The times you win will not usually put you in a significantly better position to make final table(especially if you keep playing like that) as opposed to the times you simply bust out.

[AKQJs_2o]

rocko44 said:

** Dealing Flop ** [ 5s, 4s, Qh ]Woohoo! Top pair, decent kicker. I bet about the size of the pot.RayLWillock checks.XParadox bets [60].gooey333 folds.Bet_Em_High2 calls [60]. ~~ Quick-call here, I put them on a draw.~~JustFold folds.RayLWillock folds.

I don't see anything wrong with this bet. Opponent is playing passively or trapping, so it's hard to put him on a Set. Your read putting him on a draw seems logical - two spades to a flush draw, straight flush/small straight it he is playing As-{2s or 3s}. Your QQ would still be good.

rocko44 said:

** Dealing Turn ** [ Th ]XParadox bets [200].Bet_Em_High2 calls [200].Here's where the warning bells should've started ringing. They still haven't hit their draw, that I can see, so what could I be up against?

Th doesn't help any of his probable draws (see above). He's a calling station at this point so putting him on the draw seems like a solid read. The 200 bet is a good amount to charge him to see another card if he's still on the drawYou're playing aggressively here, can't fault you for that. Your opponent isn't indicating any kind of strength, even though he is sitting on a low Set. Your QQ would still be good if he is holding As-{2s, 3s} which is a powerful hand to be drawing to and might explain why he is hanging in there.

rocko44 said:

** Dealing River ** [ 3c ]Hmm.. are they playing A/2? ... I suppose it's possible, especially since I didn't raise preflop. But Hell's handwagons, let's go ahead and line up the firing squad! XParadox is all-In [650]Bet_Em_High2 calls [650].XParadox shows [ Qd, Jd ] a pair of queens.Bet_Em_High2 shows [ 5d, 5h ] three of a kind, fives.... Ouch. Should I have smelled this? They got me to dig my own grave, dive in, THEN fill it in for them afterwards. Strong play on their part or pathetic on my part? I'm hoping a little bit of both.Thoughts?

In hindsight the all-in bet was overly aggressive, but the opponent hadn't shown any strength up to that point, you were leading into him the whole hand, he was just calling. With the :clubs3: :spades4: :spades5: showing a professional poker player would've probably respected the fact that he has a possible straight, especially if the the :spadesa: :spades2: read is correct, and maybe would've checked or bet 200 instead of pushing all-in against a possible beat by a small straight.Of course it's easy to say all this when you're sitting behind a keyboard, you don't have to make decisions at game speed under real life conditions, and you already know the outcome.Final Analysis: All-in bet on the final betting round was to aggressive a play to make against a possible straight. You played your QQ to aggressively. You got trapped since your opponent had a Set after the flop.Make a note that this player will slow play a small Set from the flop onwards for future games.

[ahosang]

OK, the above post was my first since this ridiculous rephrase mechanism got put in place. I thought it was a bad idea, but didn't comment on it before. Seeing how it just messed up a simple post, I'll point it out to admin in the relevant area. It's funny I know, but come on, it's not April Fool's day. It needs to be removed and a system of banning persistent offenders introduced instead. Censorship by artiificial intelligence is not quite ready yet.

[AKQJs_2o]

Deleted duplicate post.

[Markmadness]

Sometimes you got to fold even with the best hand if you are not sure. Save your chips for a better spot.

[BilliardsBoy]

I think you could have known you were in trouble and acted accordingly, but I just think you were in a bad spot. I hate playing my top pair from early position and getting a caller. If I slow down, it invites him to make a bet that I can't call even if I actually have him beat. Thinking your Q was good wasn't bad IMO just because there were only limpers in the pot. Someone with a KQ or AQ would prolly have raised before the flop, at least I would have. Unfortunately, you put him on a draw and got caught with your pants down. So you didn't put him on a set, I don't see a big problem with that. It's hard for any player to ignore their instincts on a read and change them mid hand.

[JFarrell20]

I don't understand why you move all-in on the river. If you were going to move all in you should have done so over the top of his 200 on the turn. Don't call, then move all in after another card comes off...other than that, the only other real mistake was not raising pre-flop in such a multi-way pot. You've also got to be worried about his $200 bet into you on the turn card. This is usually a large sign of strength when you bet the flop, then they bet out on the turn knowing full well you have a hand. They want a call.

[dominiksdad]

JFarrell20 said:

I don't understand why you move all-in on the river.  If you were going to move all in you should have done so over the top of his 200 on the turn.  Don't call, then move all in after another card comes off...other than that, the only other real mistake was not raising pre-flop in such a multi-way pot.   You've also got to be worried about his $200 bet into you on the turn card.  This is usually a large sign of strength when you bet the flop, then they bet out on the turn knowing full well you have a hand.   They want a call.

Go back and read the post again!!!He could't go all-in over the top on the turn because he bet and the other guy called him.Raising pre-flop with QJs is not a sensible move either.Why don't you stick to making up ludicrous new rules and leave the advice to those who understand the game?

[JFarrell20]

dominiksdad said:

JFarrell20 said:

I don't understand why you move all-in on the river.  If you were going to move all in you should have done so over the top of his 200 on the turn.  Don't call, then move all in after another card comes off...other than that, the only other real mistake was not raising pre-flop in such a multi-way pot.   You've also got to be worried about his $200 bet into you on the turn card.  This is usually a large sign of strength when you bet the flop, then they bet out on the turn knowing full well you have a hand.   They want a call.

Go back and read the post again!!!He could't go all-in over the top on the turn because he bet and the other guy called him.Raising pre-flop with QJs is not a sensible move either.Why don't you stick to making up ludicrous new rules and leave the advice to those who understand the game?

OK, whoops. My mistake. The point is, why does he push all in on the river? No reason to. He even said he was scared of the wheel. I just don't get it. He isn't going to "buy the pot" here. I hate the $200 bet here on the turn. I hate it. It leaves little option but to push all in on the river, which isn't good either. I bet about 90 here and hope to just get called and improve my hand on the river. If I don't improve, it's an easy check/fold, or he can throw out a C-note as damage control and hope to just get called. Frankly, it could go either way, the point is, he'd still have chips left. If you throw a C-note out there and you get re-raised this is an easy laydown. He saves $660 playing this way. To go from betting $60 on the flop to betting $200 on the turn is downright bad play. $200 is neither proportional to the flop bet, nor his remaining stack.