farha vs. greenstein aa vs. kk preflop

[Guitarmy 0]

I just watched the latest GSN High Stakes Poker and am curious as to what others thought of the hand. If Sammy wasn't on T.V. do you think he might have just layed down the Kings since it was the last hand of the night? From watching it looked like he knew he was up against aces but had to call?

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

1. Check the poker on TV forum--this has been discussed ad nauseum.2. Farha didn't call, he pushed. He raised, Greenstein re-raised, Farha pushed, Greenstein called. 3. Don't fold KK preflop.

[stealfromblind 0]

1. Check the poker on TV forum--this has been discussed ad nauseum.2. Farha didn't call, he pushed. He raised, Greenstein re-raised, Farha pushed, Greenstein called.  3. Don't fold KK preflop.

i think better players should be able to make this fold.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

1. Check the poker on TV forum--this has been discussed ad nauseum.2. Farha didn't call, he pushed. He raised, Greenstein re-raised, Farha pushed, Greenstein called.  3. Don't fold KK preflop.

i think better players should be able to make this fold.

Better players like, say, Dan Harrington?

[Suited_Up 2]

PogueMahone once folded KK to me in a NL cash game.Just sayin.He was right by the way.

[Guest]

as i watched it, i thought it seemed obvious that barry couldn't possibly have anything but aces. but think about it deeper.barry raised.. farha reraised. what does barry put farha on? considering what farha's raising range is, barry would probably push with JJ-AA/AKs instead of just QQ-AA. do you guys really think barry would play QQ differently in this spot?now, if farha acted first and it went farha raise, barry reraise, farha reraise, barry push.. THEN farha could realistically fold.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

No.Don't fold KK preflop. Seriously.

[looshle 6]

1. Check the poker on TV forum--this has been discussed ad nauseum.2. Farha didn't call, he pushed. He raised, Greenstein re-raised, Farha pushed, Greenstein called.  3. Don't fold KK preflop.

i think better players should be able to make this fold.

Better players like, say, Dan Harrington?

Thats a tournament, completely different from a cash game.Sammy knew the worst possible hand Barry could have was QQ but he knew even Barry might have slowed down.So basically its 50/50, QQ, the 2 other Ks, or AA, and it looked more like AA than QQ. I think you can fold a hand if you realistically think your opponent has the nuts.If stacks were deep enough I have the ability to fold the second nut flush on unpaired board against the right opponent, whats the difference?Ive only folded it twice by the way, once I was right, and the other I never saw.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Blah, blah blah..I know it's different in a tournament than it is a cash game. You should be more likely to lay it down in a tournament than you should in a cash game--for step/satelite reasons. I'll say it again..Don't fold KK preflop.Seriously.

[looshle 6]

Blah, blah blah..I know it's different in a tournament than it is a cash game.  You should be more likely to lay it down in a tournament than you should in a cash game--for step/satelite reasons.  I'll say it again..Don't fold KK preflop.Seriously.

"Don't ever fold the 2nd nuts either, no matter what the price, no matter what the odds, no matter how deep your stack is.There's only one hand that beats you, he CAN'T have it."You should be more likely to lay it down in a cash game because you have an endless supply of chips behind you. In a tournament the blinds force the action and late in a tournament you are most likely forced to put it in even in you are 90% sure he has AA.Don't lay KK down more than a few times in your entire career, but understand that reads and getting away from huge hands are a big part of succeeding.Never say there is a definite especially with anything other than the nuts.If its the first hand of a 10,000 buy in deep stacked tournament and theres a bet,raise, re raise, all in and call in front of me, KK is hitting the muck just as fast as 32o.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Dear Looshle, This really isn't debatable. You shouldn't be laying KK down preflop in a cash game, period, regardless of how deep stacks are in relation to blinds. You simply go broke when KK runs into AA--it's like overhead. Your second nut flush analogy is flawed. There is betting and other information that would influence us laying down the second nut flush.Warmest Regards, Erik

[mig 0]

Good player should be able to fold KK in a cash game. It is much much much harder to fold KK in a tourney however.

[Actuary 3]

no poster here is "good enough" to fold KK preflopNo one here can "read" that well.shut up, and don't fold KK in a non- Bubble ITM/Satellite situation.you just sound gay repeating that garbage "good players.. blah blah...

[looshle 6]

Dear Looshle,  This really isn't debatable. You shouldn't be laying KK down preflop in a cash game, period, regardless of how deep stacks are in relation to blinds. You simply go broke when KK runs into AA--it's like overhead.  Your second nut flush analogy is flawed. There is betting and other information that would influence us laying down the second nut flush.Warmest Regards,  Erik

Actually it's easier to fold KK than the second nut flush (second nuts) because there is a much wider range of hands for the other person to be betting, i.e one of the many lower flushes, a straight, set, 2 pair.Since you only have 2 cards, your holding preflop becomes much more refined and after the 4th or 5th raise you should start to worry.I'm not putting in $20,000 preflop with KK at a .50/$1 NL table, you shouldnt either. It's a stretched out scenario but it still proves a point.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

Actually it's easier to fold KK than the second nut flush (second nuts) because there is a much wider range of hands for the other person to be betting, i.e one of the many lower flushes, a straight, set, 2 pair.

No. Less information = tougher decision. If I have the second nut flush by the river, I've had 4 rounds of betting (PF, flop, turn, river--assuming I'm in position) to draw information about the hand.

I'm not putting in $20,000 preflop with KK at a .50/$1 NL table, you shouldnt either. It's a stretched out scenario but it still proves a point.

No. That's a dumb and ridiculous scenario. I believe, it's 1 of 22 times you get KK, you'll run into AA. 5 out of 110 you get KK in preflop, you will run into AA--YOU WILL WIN ROUGHLY ONE OF THOSE.This is why we have a fucking bankroll. If you're scared to lose your buy in--or the money means that much--DON'T PLAY.If my buy-in was 20k at .5/1 NL, I would still never lay down KK preflop. Because I'd have at least 400k for a suitable bankroll for that kind of buy in. See?But don't advocate folding KK preflop--it's dumb. None of us are good enough, smart enough, or can deduce well enough, when we run into AA preflop.

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

no poster here is "good enough" to fold KK preflopNo one here can "read" that well.shut up, and don't fold KK in a non- Bubble ITM/Satellite situation.you just sound gay repeating that garbage  "good players.. blah blah...

Dead on.

[looshle 6]

I respect your opinion but if you wouldnt lay down KK for 20,000 @ a .5/1 NL table you might want to reevaluate your play.I'm not advocating folding it on any type of regular basis, I've played hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of hands, and I've only laid it down twice.If you have any doubts at all get your $ in, but there is going to come a time in your career where the situation and information is going to let you know that someone at the tables has aces. The 1 time that I did fold it and saw the hands made me roughly $2,000. which is about 1/4 of my current bankroll. Folding KK preflop should be an absolute rarity, not not an impossibility.

[Actuary 3]

ROT

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

I respect your opinion but if you wouldnt lay down KK for 20,000 @ a .5/1 NL table you might want to reevaluate your play.

No.I'm a winning player. I've made some good money in my time--I've never made any money laying KK down preflop.

I'm not advocating folding it on any type of regular basis, I've played hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of hands, and I've only laid it down twice.

Yeah, I layed it down once. I have 1400 in front of me in a 1/2 NL, 100 min/max buy in. Another guy has 1800. He bets 12, I raise to 30, he raises to 150, I raise to 450, he pushes, I fold it face up and say.."I know what that raise means." He flipped over QQ. Know why? He wasn't scared of losing his buy in/1400 dollars. Weird.

If you have any doubts at all get your $ in, but there is going to come a time in your career where the situation and information is going to let you know that someone at the tables has aces.

Look, I'm not saying you don't 'get that feeling' or whatever. But you don't do it. It's overhead. It's why we have bankrolls. It has nothing to do with any watershed moment in your career. Don't do it.

The 1 time that I did fold it and saw the hands made me roughly $2,000. which is about 1/4 of my current bankroll.

I have no idea what this means. I think you're saying that KK is responsible for 1/4 of your bankroll. Good, that's why we don't fold it preflop.

Folding KK preflop should be an absolute rarity, not not an impossibility.

No.

[looshle 6]

I respect your opinion but if you wouldnt lay down KK for 20,000 @ a .5/1 NL table you might want to reevaluate your play.

No.I'm a winning player. I've made some good money in my time--I've never made any money laying KK down preflop.

I'm not advocating folding it on any type of regular basis, I've played hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of hands, and I've only laid it down twice.

Yeah, I layed it down once. I have 1400 in front of me in a 1/2 NL, 100 min/max buy in. Another guy has 1800. He bets 12, I raise to 30, he raises to 150, I raise to 450, he pushes, I fold it face up and say.."I know what that raise means." He flipped over QQ. Know why? He wasn't scared of losing his buy in/1400 dollars. Weird.

If you have any doubts at all get your $ in, but there is going to come a time in your career where the situation and information is going to let you know that someone at the tables has aces.

Look, I'm not saying you don't 'get that feeling' or whatever. But you don't do it. It's overhead. It's why we have bankrolls. It has nothing to do with any watershed moment in your career. Don't do it.

The 1 time that I did fold it and saw the hands made me roughly $2,000. which is about 1/4 of my current bankroll.

I have no idea what this means. I think you're saying that KK is responsible for 1/4 of your bankroll. Good, that's why we don't fold it preflop.

Folding KK preflop should be an absolute rarity, not not an impossibility.

No.

No, I mean that if i had called, I would have $2000 less than I currently have.If he had showed you AA instead of QQ, your respeonse to this thread would be somewhat different than what it is now.I've made money by folding it , you havent , and you havent ever been in the situation where you have correctly folded it, but I'm sure theres going to come a time where you are going to know someone has it. If you still push your stack in, thats your game and I respect it. Experience still shouldnt affect strategy, though.I'm not the type of person who looks to make a helmuthian laydown but I dont think there are many absolutes in poker.

[scottyno 0]

Blah, blah blah..I know it's different in a tournament than it is a cash game.  You should be more likely to lay it down in a tournament than you should in a cash game--for step/satelite reasons.  I'll say it again..Don't fold KK preflop.Seriously.

"Don't ever fold the 2nd nuts either, no matter what the price, no matter what the odds, no matter how deep your stack is.There's only one hand that beats you, he CAN'T have it."You should be more likely to lay it down in a cash game because you have an endless supply of chips behind you. In a tournament the blinds force the action and late in a tournament you are most likely forced to put it in even in you are 90% sure he has AA.Don't lay KK down more than a few times in your entire career, but understand that reads and getting away from huge hands are a big part of succeeding.Never say there is a definite especially with anything other than the nuts.If its the first hand of a 10,000 buy in deep stacked tournament and theres a bet,raise, re raise, all in and call in front of me, KK is hitting the muck just as fast as 32o.

no, you should be more likely to call in a cash game for reasos you just gave. You have an endless supply of chips. If you are right then you double up. If you're wrong then you just add more chips. If you are wrong in a tourney then thats it unless you suck out you're gone. In a cash game you should never lay down KK

[scottyno 0]

The 1 time that I did fold it and saw the hands made me roughly $2,000. which is about 1/4 of my current bankroll.

you put yourself in a bad spot by sitting with that much money at once. You should never be sitting with 25% of your bankroll at once, this is terrible

[DrawingDeadInDM 0]

No, I mean that if i had called, I would have $2000 less than I currently have.

So, you were playing out of your bankroll? Weird.

If he had showed you AA instead of QQ, your respeonse to this thread would be somewhat different than what it is now.

No--it reinforced my previous opinion.

I've made money by folding it , you havent

Wrong. You don't know. What if you spiked a K? Then you shorted yourself 2k. But hey, wouldn't have mattered if you were playing in your freaking bankroll.

and you havent ever been in the situation where you have correctly folded it, but I'm sure theres going to come a time where you are going to know someone has it. If you still push your stack in, thats your game and I respect it.  Experience still shouldnt affect strategy, though.

Wow, you're talking to me about results oriented play and experience affecting your strategy? You folded KK once and were right, and now you think that folding there was correct?

I'm not the type of person who looks to make a helmuthian laydown but I dont think there are many absolutes in poker.

I'll start you with one.1. Playing within your bankroll, there is never a reason to fold KK preflop.

[looshle 6]

The 1 time that I did fold it and saw the hands made me roughly $2,000. which is about 1/4 of my current bankroll.

you put yourself in a bad spot by sitting with that much money at once. You should never be sitting with 25% of your bankroll at once, this is terrible

It was a tournament, about a year ago, which I ended up taking down by getting away from it.I don't think you're giving me enough credit over here.

[Actuary 3]

ROT