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mtt strategy discussion


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#61 Loismustdie

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 09:39 AM

View Postbelatropic, on Monday, February 20th, 2006, 8:23 AM, said:

How about turning the TV off & actually paying attention Early in the tournament when accumulating chips makes life so much easier in the later rounds. After 30 minutes you should get a good read on the other players.
No- that's a terrible idea. With the average tournement starting stack at 1500 my goal in the first hour is to wait for big hands and double up or more- it's pretty much an issue of automatic poker, and if I happen to get lucky enough to get a decent stack then I will focus and take the time to actually play. Unless there is a major player at my table in the first hour I am not really all that worried about watching people because chances are they will be gone soon anyway. I look at MTT's like this- If I don't build a good sized stack in the first hour I am pretty much done, except in the rare situation when I go on a huge rush of cards. If I am a decent sized stack, hour 2 is about getting into the top 40 or so(based on a field of 500), hour 3 is about geting into the top ten and then I am going to use my stack to start taking more chances with marginal hands- it is not uncommon to see me drop from 1st to 20th and then back again continually, and the reason being is I know people are watching and I need them to know that I am capable of anything, which I need for the final table. Often as a big stack mathematically you can take chances alot more than people think because you can get it all back next hand with a basic preflop steal- It's amazing how many times I will call off some chips with some B.S. and then everybody folds to my raise the next hand- people get very afraid to tangle. I also find that when I hit the goals that I set within the tournament even when I go bust, I feel like I played well and it doesn't matter. It's funny, because I have won alot of tournaments, and have never read any books of any use- only book that I read so far was one of Helmuths ABC books, and really those are overall a joke. So, when you guys say certain things like reraising a continuation bet I don't really know those terms, but then I look at the situation and realize I do that all of the time,I just don't know what it is called. BTW, anybody willing to discuss some SNG strategy over the phone PM me and we can talk- I need input from people and some new ways to look at SNG style 10 mans so I can win this Protoge thing, and I will pay homage to anyone who helps me out, some how, I promise.

View PostMisterB, on Monday, February 20th, 2006, 9:23 AM, said:

Dealing with the one at the table who goes on a ridiculous run early in the tournament..How do I deal with that person that seems to be in everyhand and hit every flop and builds a massive chip lead early in the tournament? What are the ways to deal with that? Do I stay out of their way and hope to get moved to another table? Or do I go after them and try to calm them down? It just seems that at the beginning of every tourney someone will build up a huge lead (usually by playing poorly) and end up calling every bet to the river to try and get everyones chips... Too many times have I had an overpair or hit a set and had that person call with a flush draw..etc... Thoughts?Also I would like to know everyones thoughts on showing hands... I never show any hand bluff or not... And wanted to know if it is wise to show a good bluff everyonce in a while to encourage action later in the tournament?
I love that guy- he will double me up when the time is right and why would you have a problem with him drawing out on you? That happens, and as long as you are getting your chips in as a favorite you can't ask for much more than that. I never show unless I have too. That's just my rule. I am going to show enough hands anyway just because my style is so confrontational that it's not neccesary.
So much for a comeback.

#62 Drwnded

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Posted 01 March 2006 - 10:40 AM

Since this thread may get stickied, I was asked to move this info from a recent thread over here. Here's the original post plus some responses (sorry, long):Drwnded wrote:The longer HOH v1 and 2 are out, the more people I see in tournies employing at least some of the tactics described, especially probe and continuation bets. Lately, I'm trying to identify the players who are seemingly using these types of bets at my table early so I can resteal from them after the flop in the following way:Let's say I'm heads-up postflop with a player who raised preflop and has shown a tendency to make continuation/probe bets. If the flop is reasonably benign-looking and the villian bets out 1/2 or less of the pot, I find I can fold them and steal the pot with any two cards a high percentage of the time by raising them a standard amount (about 3X their flop bet) with any two cards. You have to pick your spots to try this obviously, but mathematically I think it's a +EV play. Since you're raising 3X their flop bet, you're raising the amount in the pot since their bet was roughly 1/2 the pot (e.g. - 500 in the pot, they bet 250, you raise to 750, which is the amount in the pot). This should mean that you only have to win 50% or more of these pots for the play to show a +EV. Assuming that if the villian doesn't connect with the flop he will fold to your raise, and since any two unpaired cards will connect with the flop only about 1/3 of the time (and make top pair even less than that), theoretically you should win more than 50% (roughly 66%) of these pots.What about when the villian holds a pocket overpair? I agree this could be trouble occaisonally, but I find that most players will bet more than half the pot in order to protect their hand when they make top pair or an overpair unless the flop is really very nonthreatening. Thus, if they bet more than 1/2 the pot I wouldn't try this play.Furthermore, position doesn't seem to affect this play adversely, since it should be just as potent whether you're making the raise behind the player's bet, or making it as a steal check-raise.What do you guys think? Does this make sense?amarillotq wrote:i agree.just a couple more thoughts.i'd want a fairly deep stack (an M of 15-20 minimum) to make this move with no hand and no draw.when i am in position, sometimes i like to just flat call. if the pre-flop raiser did miss the flop and you call his continuation bet he will usually check the turn UI allowing you to scoop it fairly easily. i like this play a little better because you commit less chips if he does actually have something.mk wrote:Yes, I have uttered similar sentiments here before. Basically whenever I see people firing out continuation bets like a HOH-Robot, it makes me cringe. And yes, both the c/r and the stop-n-go are valauable weapons against this type of player.One other thing to consider is the competition. Making 'plays' at players in $10 MTTs isn't a good idea. They're often gonna jam it even if they whiff with AQ. If you try to move them off a weak hand when you're weak too, you'll find yourself quickly on the rail. You just want to value bet against these players. But against the "solid" (read: bad) HOH-bot, you can make these plays with confidence, because they will fold when they miss and get c/r-ed, or they will shut down when you call their flop continuation bet.copernicus wrote:In the original post you go to some lengths to justify raising 3x the preflop raise since that winds up being the current pot amount...it would be easier just to say "raise the pot". In the Caesars tourney there was a an apparently very wealth biz man and friend of Ron Rose on my right who was addicted to cb's. After coming over the top on him twice with good hands, I realized I didnt need such a good hand and stole from him 4 more times before he came back at me and I had to fold.Definitely +EV against the right players. Good thoughts..cut and paste it into the long strategy thread since that seems to be gaining life as the strategy thread.

#63 Drwnded

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Posted 17 March 2006 - 05:22 AM

Not only to bump this thread, but hopefully to add a little something:Last night while playing in an MTT, another bit of strategy that I employ sometimes occurred to me.When I flop a strong made hand (example: top two-pair or a set) against one opponent who is relatively short-stacked, obviously my main consideration is how I can get them to put all their chips in the middle. I think in these situations it's important to size your bet in terms of a percentage of your opponents stack, rather than as a percentage of the pot. I find it optimal to bet an amount that leaves your opponent thinking he has some fold equity if he pushes. About 1/4 to 1/3 of the villian's remaining stack seems to be about right. That way you can induce a relatively solid player to believe that he has some chance of moving you off the hand if he pushes with something marginal (but that may have a chance to improve if called) like middle pair or a flush draw, when in fact you are inducing him to semibluff as a huge underdog/drawing dead.In contrast, if you bet a more standard amount, say 1/2-pot, which happens to be around 1/2 or more of the villian's stack, he likely folds since he knows he has no fold equity in that situation and you don't get paid off.Thoughts?

#64 GrinderMJ

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Posted 17 March 2006 - 08:57 AM

View PostDrwnded, on Friday, March 17th, 2006, 6:22 PM, said:

Not only to bump this thread, but hopefully to add a little something:Last night while playing in an MTT, another bit of strategy that I employ sometimes occurred to me.When I flop a strong made hand (example: top two-pair or a set) against one opponent who is relatively short-stacked, obviously my main consideration is how I can get them to put all their chips in the middle. I think in these situations it's important to size your bet in terms of a percentage of your opponents stack, rather than as a percentage of the pot. I find it optimal to bet an amount that leaves your opponent thinking he has some fold equity if he pushes. About 1/4 to 1/3 of the villian's remaining stack seems to be about right. That way you can induce a relatively solid player to believe that he has some chance of moving you off the hand if he pushes with something marginal (but that may have a chance to improve if called) like middle pair or a flush draw, when in fact you are inducing him to semibluff as a huge underdog/drawing dead.In contrast, if you bet a more standard amount, say 1/2-pot, which happens to be around 1/2 or more of the villian's stack, he likely folds since he knows he has no fold equity in that situation and you don't get paid off.Thoughts?
I like that idea, actually. I will try that next time as it is obviously logical.

#65 astros11ss

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Posted 17 March 2006 - 12:15 PM

View PostGrinderMJ, on Friday, March 17th, 2006, 10:57 AM, said:

I like that idea, actually. I will try that next time as it is obviously logical.
i agree, i'm gonna try it out over the next few weeks. also, this thread needs to be reborn, it has soooo much more potential.

#66 gobears

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Posted 05 June 2006 - 04:15 PM

Worthy of a bump
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#67 mk

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 04:25 AM

This should probably be stickied. The $22 180 thread should be as well.




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