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#21 GrinderMJ

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 12:19 PM

Another topic I think is interesting, is when you are playing a big pot early, say a 1000 chip pot when blinds are low say 20-40 30/60 and you have the nuts or obviously the best hand, and your opponent bets minimum into the massive pot. Are you raising in relation to his bet, or are you raising in relation to the size of the pot. It always seems strange to raise to 240 in a 1000 chip pot and seems strange to raise from 60 to 800. For this discussion, assume we are at the river. Thoughts?

#22 Ron_Mexico

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 12:23 PM

GrinderMJ said:

PM you are by far my favorite poster
fuck you and fuck PM. Him and his "poker knowledge", what does he know anyway? It's not like he final tabled and events or.... wait, ummm, nevermind.Well, he still likes men right?
I make $31,000 dollars a year and I have a home.

#23 GrinderMJ

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 12:23 PM

Patrick, i know this is a lot to ask, but sometime this weekend or next week, in the stars 150, for maybe a half hour or the first hour, wold it be possible to get on AIM with you to maybe have you take a look at how I'm playing hands in the first hour, to see if you find hands you do'nt like and maybe help me identify some leaks.

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 12:26 PM

Thanks guys for your suggestions and help. I'm in a similar funk with bubbling and when I have a good chip lead, I don't tighten up enough and end up chipping off enough to cost me the final table. On another note though, I had an interesting hand last week in a full tilt tourney that i'm interested in your thoughts concerning. I'd post the hh but it's at home so i'll recap.Final hand before the first break, I'm on the button with AA (7,000 chips and 2nd table leader and top 15 in the tourney) with the blinds at 50/100. Table folds around to table leader (12,000 and near chip leader) who limps. All fold to me and I raise to 300. Both blinds fold and table leader calls. (fyi, I had been just moved to this table so i don't have any history with this guy to know his tendencies.)FLOP: 88KWe both check. (i'm hoping here he has a K and will bet out the turn)TURN: xHe bets 500 and i raise 1000. He raises me 1000 and i reraise another 1000 more. He then reraises All In. I immediately call thinking he has AK which was just plain dumb in hindsight because had i thought for a second i would have realized he would probably have not limped with a hand as strong as AK even though he was the first into the pot. I can certainly get out of this hand here (while cutting my stack in half but still above average), but is it such a bad call to make for my tournament life? He could have any range of hands like 99-QQ, K10-AK which i could beat or he could be flat out bluffing. My fear was A8 of course, and then he turned over 88 for the dagger. One thing that occurs to me was that my hope that he had a K on the flop may have affected the rest of my play. I confused "a read" that he had a K with "a hope" that he had a K.Other than the obvious, how would you play the hand differently and what would be your thoughts at each stage? I'm fairly new to posting, so i hope i've given enough information.Thanks guys,Ryan

#25 PMJackson21

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 12:27 PM

Vatche said:

lot of good info in your whole post Patrick, but this paragraph got my attention...i never really thought of this and its a very intresting point of view, AND IT MAKES A WHOLE LOT OF SENSE...thx. :-)

PMJackson21 said:

If I am _extremely_ short stacked ( I mean 3 bb or below range) I will only play a premium hand and instead wait for the bb to hit me to commit my chips. With no fold equity, you are going to get called by hands that have you in bad shape normally if you push with a marginal hand, but if you wait until the BB you will often get people to come after you with lackluster hands. It's probably the only thing I have ever, and ever will, agree with Russ Boyd on.
Here's a thread from last year on RGP that deals with this strategy. Pay particular attention to nshen...@yahoo.com's post. Very good explanation.http://groups.google...4103c4852b5a5c0Patrick

#26 checkymcfold

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 12:29 PM

generally, i'll agree with pretty much everything PMJ said, except for the quickly increasing blinds situation. here, i'm basically playing the thing like a rebuy, except rebuying just means entering the next tournament that starts in 20 minutes on another site. the advantages to doing this are that you'll look like a retard when you do get that early double up, and that will give you a table image that gets you enough calls early to REALLY build a huge stack. when i play these sorts of tournaments, i'm either out in like 15 minutes or in the top 5 at the end of the first hour, almost without exception. and being able to put people to the test for all their chips without really damaging your stack is a HUGE advantage when you get to the large jumps in blinds around the 50/100-75/150 levels on most sites.as for rebuys, PMJ notes something that's very important. basically, play LAG unless you've got someone doing the same thing, and in that situation don't be afraid to push 70/30 shots against those guys pf. also, as PMJ says, the point of playing crazy is to get a big stack, so when you get it, tighten up--as with the above situation, your crazy play will get you an image that will get you calls when you tighten up and want them.as for the deep stacks, small pairs, suited connectors, 1- and 2-gappers are going to get you the most money early. if people aren't raising their aces enough to ruin your implied odds, then make them pay for that when you hit a garbage flop hard. see flops against hands that you know your opponent won't know how to get away from when the flop comes 468, etc. your set of 4s or a str8 will get a lot of money when your villain can't fold his kings or aces.also, a general note for tight-ish tables: early, play a TON of hands in late position, all the way down to things like T8o and 48s, etc. if there's a lot of limping and tight/weak play postflop, you can play almost anything profitably from late position, as you'll be scooping a lot of pots when it checks around to you. if people start figuring you out and checkraising you on flops, then settle down, but make them tell you that they're not going to take it anymore before you believe it.EDIT: and a note about PMJ's note about extremely shortstacked play--he's right, but there's an inverse to that, too. if you've got super shortstacks behind you, you should be playing fewer hands because they're going to be more likely to push it in with kt when you open raise a9 in mp3, and you don't want to be risking meaningful percentages of your stack on 55% shots when you don't have any implied odds if you hit the flop.

#27 Vatche

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 12:32 PM

PMJackson21 said:

Vatche said:

lot of good info in your whole post Patrick, but this paragraph got my attention...i never really thought of this and its a very intresting point of view, AND IT MAKES A WHOLE LOT OF SENSE...thx. :-)

PMJackson21 said:

If I am _extremely_ short stacked ( I mean 3 bb or below range) I will only play a premium hand and instead wait for the bb to hit me to commit my chips. With no fold equity, you are going to get called by hands that have you in bad shape normally if you push with a marginal hand, but if you wait until the BB you will often get people to come after you with lackluster hands. It's probably the only thing I have ever, and ever will, agree with Russ Boyd on.
Here's a thread from last year on RGP that deals with this strategy. Pay particular attention to nshen...@yahoo.com's post. Very good explanation.http://groups.google...4103c4852b5a5c0Patrick
thx for the link.

#28 GrinderMJ

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 12:38 PM

_OutKicked_ said:

Thanks guys for your suggestions and help. I'm in a similar funk with bubbling and when I have a good chip lead, I don't tighten up enough and end up chipping off enough to cost me the final table. On another note though, I had an interesting hand last week in a full tilt tourney that i'm interested in your thoughts concerning. I'd post the hh but it's at home so i'll recap.Final hand before the first break, I'm on the button with AA (7,000 chips and 2nd table leader and top 15 in the tourney) with the blinds at 50/100. Table folds around to table leader (12,000 and near chip leader) who limps. All fold to me and I raise to 300. Both blinds fold and table leader calls. (fyi, I had been just moved to this table so i don't have any history with this guy to know his tendencies.)FLOP: 88KWe both check. (i'm hoping here he has a K and will bet out the turn)TURN: xHe bets 500 and i raise 1000. He raises me 1000 and i reraise another 1000 more. He then reraises All In. I immediately call thinking he has AK which was just plain dumb in hindsight because had i thought for a second i would have realized he would probably have not limped with a hand as strong as AK even though he was the first into the pot. I can certainly get out of this hand here (while cutting my stack in half but still above average), but is it such a bad call to make for my tournament life? He could have any range of hands like 99-QQ, K10-AK which i could beat or he could be flat out bluffing. My fear was A8 of course, and then he turned over 88 for the dagger. One thing that occurs to me was that my hope that he had a K on the flop may have affected the rest of my play. I confused "a read" that he had a K with "a hope" that he had a K.Other than the obvious, how would you play the hand differently and what would be your thoughts at each stage? I'm fairly new to posting, so i hope i've given enough information.Thanks guys,Ryan
Uggh, tough hand, but when 3 bets, then 5 bets, you are for sure beat, 99% percent of the time, he's not gonna risk 7k of his chips without an 8, and i believe as a big stack a majority of the time he's gonna raise preflop with ak, tough hand, i don't like your min reraises, step those up and raise to about 2000 on your first raise, and then fold to his reraise.

#29 speedz99

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 12:39 PM

Longshanks said:

GrinderMJ said:

Matt_Damon said:

Matt Damon
speedz don't gay up this thread please, I'm trying to actually have some intelligent discussion in a thread for once. i thought you only did the matt damon in stupid threads, is this one of them?
that is speedz? well in that case its gay lame and canadian, i think his point also was this isnt in the strat forum
I'm not Canadian.Matt Damon shows up whenever the fuck Matt Damon wants to show up.Nice posts, Patrick.

#30 radar37

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 12:46 PM

Good tips mj and patrick. Going to try and keep a lot of this in mind on my next tourny.

#31 PMJackson21

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 12:51 PM

GrinderMJ said:

Another topic I think is interesting, is when you are playing a big pot early, say a 1000 chip pot when blinds are low say 20-40 30/60 and you have the nuts or obviously the best hand, and your opponent bets minimum into the massive pot. Are you raising in relation to his bet, or are you raising in relation to the size of the pot. It always seems strange to raise to 240 in a 1000 chip pot and seems strange to raise from 60 to 800. For this discussion, assume we are at the river. Thoughts?
Well, you should obviously make as big of a raise possible that you still think will get called. Figuring that out can be tricky, but your read on the player and what you think his read on you is, in combination with the board (for instance, having the nuts with 67 on a 458ak board is more deceiving then having the As on a 4 spade board) all go into making that decision. I tend to make overbets if I think there is a decent chance of being called, especially against a better player. Try and do the opposite of what they expect you to do.That actually is a good segue to something I forgot to mention in my original reply regarding short stack play. Let's say it's late in a MTT and I have somewhere around 5-6 bbs at a table with mid to large stacks, and pick up a hand like KJo, or 55 etc and it is folded to me. Obviously I'm probably at the point where I am willing to play the hand for the rest of my chips, but at this stage with a vulnerable hand, picking up the blinds without a showdown is always preferable. Now, most people would push all-in here (and there is nothing wrong with that play and is something I myself would do at times) and hope they had enough FE. Against another short stack on the BB, I probably would just push in fact.Against a mid to large stack though, I like to make a smaller raise, maybe half my stack. Now, it should be obvious to any observant player that I am commited to the pot, so if they are going to play they will most likely put me all-in. Likewise, I am mentally already commited to the pot if I get played back at since it is no different then if I pushed to begin with. The added edge that I feel you gain in this situation is how your opponents view your raise. They see a desperate short stack who normally just pushes with any sort of hand make a raise that looks like he/she wants to be played with. On the surface, it looks like you have a premium hand and want to maximize your profit from the hand. With that thought in their head, you will get players to lay down hands they might have called your jam with (a7, kj, 33, etc etc), but now view as unplayable because you look to have a monster.On the flip side, if it's folded to me in that same situation and I have aces (or any other premium hand), I'm just going to push for the same reasons, just reversed. People give you less credit for a big hand when you open-push, and will call your jam with all sorts of speculative hands.Again, it comes down to level 3 thinking - what does he/she think I have?Patrick

#32 doublemeup

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 01:16 PM

GrinderMJ said:

doublemeup said:

MTT is -EV
YOU'RE -EV, YA HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT
I was kidding, calm down white boy.

#33 DLizzle

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 01:30 PM

First of all, keep giving me the best of it in side bets. haha I'm not sure if you value my opinion on tournament play after I played kinda bad in that satellite you beat me heads up in, but I believe I'm a good tournament player and have accomplishments to back it up.Before I get into strategy, if you're in a bit of a slump, there's a good chance it's something to do with your concentration and other factors like that. After I've been having some success for a while I think I'm the best player in the world and its downhill from there. My well timed bluffs start getting sloppy, I make bad calls, etc. To counter this I usually stop multitabling for a day and concentrate on one tournament at a time. Also I read threads like this so I guess we're on the right track. Deep stack low blinds. I struggle with this as well so I won't say much here. My downfall is that I try to make plays which would work at higher blind levels, but no one folds at this stage. So I guess my advice is to play simple poker. I play very tight as this stage preflop, but limp or try to get in cheap with small pairs. Even suited connectors are dangerous here to me. Also, rarely play danger hands. QJ, KJ, K10, etc unless you're first in from late position.middle the fun part. I loosen up a bit here, mostly in late position. Blind stealing is cool around the bubble, but i don't raise with nothing preflop much other than then. I generally make a lot of moves here, but I don't force the action. I'm just constantly looking for spots to gain chips. Knowing the people at the table helps a lot. At least be aware of who is a maniac and who is waiting for the nuts. I run my fair share of bluff at this stage, but only when I really feel like it will work. If you're short stacked here, it kinda sucks, but I play tight and look for spots, there's just not as much messing around. There are probably going to be a few definitive plays here that make or break you, though if you happen to drag a huge pot, don't get too excited, there's a long way to go still.bubble steal, but not without restraint. look for medium stacks, tight players, and good spots. You want to gain a lot of blinds and antes here without getting stuck in a spot where you are forced to call as an underdog and put a signifigant portioin of your chips in the pot. You have to take risks here, but calculated. The EndgameI usually blow it here so again not too many comments. I usually blow it when I don't take my time. That's huge. Think through every raise, call and fold. Be aggressive here. Heads upDon't even ask me about heads up. Just go all in and hope to get lucky. thats my advice. I never win heads up.

#34 Suited_Up

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 01:33 PM

PMJackson21 said:

GrinderMJ said:

Another topic I think is interesting, is when you are playing a big pot early, say a 1000 chip pot when blinds are low say 20-40 30/60 and you have the nuts or obviously the best hand, and your opponent bets minimum into the massive pot. Are you raising in relation to his bet, or are you raising in relation to the size of the pot. It always seems strange to raise to 240 in a 1000 chip pot and seems strange to raise from 60 to 800. For this discussion, assume we are at the river. Thoughts?
Well, you should obviously make as big of a raise possible that you still think will get called. Figuring that out can be tricky, but your read on the player and what you think his read on you is, in combination with the board (for instance, having the nuts with 67 on a 458ak board is more deceiving then having the As on a 4 spade board) all go into making that decision. I tend to make overbets if I think there is a decent chance of being called, especially against a better player. Try and do the opposite of what they expect you to do.That actually is a good segue to something I forgot to mention in my original reply regarding short stack play. Let's say it's late in a MTT and I have somewhere around 5-6 bbs at a table with mid to large stacks, and pick up a hand like KJo, or 55 etc and it is folded to me. Obviously I'm probably at the point where I am willing to play the hand for the rest of my chips, but at this stage with a vulnerable hand, picking up the blinds without a showdown is always preferable. Now, most people would push all-in here (and there is nothing wrong with that play and is something I myself would do at times) and hope they had enough FE. Against another short stack on the BB, I probably would just push in fact.Against a mid to large stack though, I like to make a smaller raise, maybe half my stack. Now, it should be obvious to any observant player that I am commited to the pot, so if they are going to play they will most likely put me all-in. Likewise, I am mentally already commited to the pot if I get played back at since it is no different then if I pushed to begin with. The added edge that I feel you gain in this situation is how your opponents view your raise. They see a desperate short stack who normally just pushes with any sort of hand make a raise that looks like he/she wants to be played with. On the surface, it looks like you have a premium hand and want to maximize your profit from the hand. With that thought in their head, you will get players to lay down hands they might have called your jam with (a7, kj, 33, etc etc), but now view as unplayable because you look to have a monster.On the flip side, if it's folded to me in that same situation and I have aces (or any other premium hand), I'm just going to push for the same reasons, just reversed. People give you less credit for a big hand when you open-push, and will call your jam with all sorts of speculative hands.Again, it comes down to level 3 thinking - what does he/she think I have?Patrick
Good info, but that last sentence is key.All depends on the tourney and where you're playing it. If you're on Party, this won't apply.(unless it's a big one)... Live, it should. Even FT, most of the late stage guys kinda have a clue.So make sure to keep all factors in mind.
-Kurt

#35 Suited_Up

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 01:38 PM

DLizzle said:

The EndgameI usually blow it here so again not too many comments. I usually blow it when I don't take my time. That's huge. Think through every raise, call and fold. Be aggressive here.  
More than you even know!!!PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE!!!I guarantee it will pay off if you pick your spots carefully.
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#36 GrinderMJ

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 01:39 PM

doublemeup said:

GrinderMJ said:

doublemeup said:

MTT is -EV
YOU'RE -EV, YA HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT
I was kidding, calm down white boy.
I was too, I don't usually yell. :club:

#37 GrinderMJ

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 01:42 PM

[quote="DLizzle"]First of all, keep giving me the best of it in side bets. haha you're a sick person taking advantage of a guy with a gambling problem. ( I shipped your cash)I'm not sure if you value my opinion on tournament play after I played kinda bad in that satellite you beat me heads up in, but I believe I'm a good tournament player and have accomplishments to back it up.I watched you for a while in a tourney, you have skills, I will listen to you. As far as that satellite went, I had a 5 to 1 chip lead and was raising nonstop, I would push your hand the exact same as you did, so that was no indicator of bad play.

#38 DLizzle

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 01:48 PM

Also, some of my favourite moves:The Blind Bet out - when there's some limping followed by a low uncoordinated unsuited flop and im in the sb or bb, I bet out with anything to represent some garbage hand that hit a garbage flop. Actually I'll even check raise here if it feels right.The Continuation Bet and the Continuation Bet Reraise - Continuation betting is an art. I like a flop where it is viable that it hit me while not being a great drawing board. The opponent has to be capable of a fold here, and you generally shouldn't try it as much when you have a maniac image.When the opponent continuation bets, reraise it if you feel like it is a continuation bet, and it is viable that you hit the flop, and if you can get a fold.*Danger Warning* The Pick up Dead Money Raise - Great play, but be very very careful with it. When there's high blinds and antes and at least a couple limpers, raise big, all in maybe, and try to pick up the pot. I still haven't perfected this yet, but the situation is very important. Image, stack sizes, players, etc. I would like some help with this move, but I know that it is great when it works.Huge Hand Plays - My favourite thing to do when I hit a big hand out of position is to make a small bet at the pot, looking to get a reraise. Obviously you want an agressive opponent here. Check raising is ok but I'm not a huge fan. I mix it up in this situation, but the small leading bet is my favourite. When I mean small, say 1/3 of the pot. Other than that, just try to figure out how best to get paid off, that's up to you. Oh, and my final word, rarely slowplay. There is a time for it, but usually be betting, even if you flop the nuts. So many advantages to this.

#39 Suited_Up

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 01:59 PM

DLizzle said:

Also, some of my favourite moves:The Blind Bet out - when there's some limping followed by a low uncoordinated unsuited flop and im in the sb or bb, I bet out with anything to represent some garbage hand that hit a garbage flop. Actually I'll even check raise here if it feels right.The Continuation Bet and the Continuation Bet Reraise - Continuation betting is an art. I like a flop where it is viable that it hit me while not being a great drawing board. The opponent has to be capable of a fold here, and you generally shouldn't try it as much when you have a maniac image.When the opponent continuation bets, reraise it if you feel like it is a continuation bet, and it is viable that you hit the flop, and if you can get a fold.*Danger Warning* The Pick up Dead Money Raise - Great play, but be very very careful with it. When there's high blinds and antes and at least a couple limpers, raise big, all in maybe, and try to pick up the pot. I still haven't perfected this yet, but the situation is very important. Image, stack sizes, players, etc. I would like some help with this move, but I know that it is great when it works.Huge Hand Plays - My favourite thing to do when I hit a big hand out of position is to make a small bet at the pot, looking to get a reraise. Obviously you want an agressive opponent here. Check raising is ok but  I'm not a huge fan. I mix it up in this situation, but the small leading bet is my favourite. When I mean small, say 1/3 of the pot.  Other than that, just try to figure out how best to get paid off, that's up to you.  Oh, and my final word, rarely slowplay. There is a time for it, but usually   be betting, even if you flop the nuts. So many advantages to this.
SHHHHHH!!You're giving the secrets away!!
-Kurt

#40 Suited_Up

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Posted 17 February 2006 - 02:01 PM

DLizzle said:

Also, some of my favourite moves:The Blind Bet out - when there's some limping followed by a low uncoordinated unsuited flop and im in the sb or bb, I bet out with anything to represent some garbage hand that hit a garbage flop. Actually I'll even check raise here if it feels right.The Continuation Bet and the Continuation Bet Reraise - Continuation betting is an art. I like a flop where it is viable that it hit me while not being a great drawing board. The opponent has to be capable of a fold here, and you generally shouldn't try it as much when you have a maniac image.When the opponent continuation bets, reraise it if you feel like it is a continuation bet, and it is viable that you hit the flop, and if you can get a fold.*Danger Warning* The Pick up Dead Money Raise - Great play, but be very very careful with it. When there's high blinds and antes and at least a couple limpers, raise big, all in maybe, and try to pick up the pot. I still haven't perfected this yet, but the situation is very important. Image, stack sizes, players, etc. I would like some help with this move, but I know that it is great when it works.Huge Hand Plays - My favourite thing to do when I hit a big hand out of position is to make a small bet at the pot, looking to get a reraise. Obviously you want an agressive opponent here. Check raising is ok but  I'm not a huge fan. I mix it up in this situation, but the small leading bet is my favourite. When I mean small, say 1/3 of the pot.  Other than that, just try to figure out how best to get paid off, that's up to you.  Oh, and my final word, rarely slowplay. There is a time for it, but usually   be betting, even if you flop the nuts. So many advantages to this.
SHHHHHH!!You're giving the secrets away!!
-Kurt




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