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#41 Actuary

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 08:35 PM

Yes.I don't think AQ is tough hereI think the borderline varies among players.it's not the message, it's the attitude.

#42 Guest_Zach6668_*

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 08:41 PM

I raise AQ in every situation, every position.Doesn't mean that there isn't a discussion to be had about it.- Zach.

#43 kouta43

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 08:44 PM

I am not surprised most posters here are winning players- the general way seems to be tight, and at lower limits this should be enough to win due to your opponents playing rubbish and you capitilising through your superior hand selection.However, i am trying to show how you can win more, and raising with good hands is a must.On a side note, i am not surprised to hear the response that i am basically arrogant. It is my single bigget downfall in poker, the ego, and it is where i have to improve most. I get far to pissed off when shitty players draw out with shitty hands even though i know it has to happen, its just my ego doesnt really like my play losing to retards getting lucky. Yeh. There's where i want to improve.

#44 screech

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 03:10 AM

Yes, AJ, AT, KJ, and even hands like A9 and KT have an equity edge here pf. the question is, whether or not we want to push that edge pf. If we do, our postflop edge will be minimized, and we will be complementing our opponents natural tendencies.Plus, unlike the flop to turn situaiton, our equity changes drastically from pf to the flop. Pushing small edges pf OOP with no other benefits, is not always the best way to maximize your winnings. IF our opponents are loose, and call too much, then they're mistakes are magnified when we keep the pot small.

#45 kouta43

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 03:24 AM

screech said:

Yes, AJ, AT, KJ, and even hands like A9 and KT have an equity edge here pf. the question is, whether or not we want to push that edge pf. If we do, our postflop edge will be minimized, and we will be complementing our opponents natural tendencies.Plus, unlike the flop to turn situaiton, our equity changes drastically from pf to the flop. Pushing small edges pf OOP with no other benefits, is not always the best way to maximize your winnings. IF our opponents are loose, and call too much, then they're mistakes are magnified when we keep the pot small.
I see what you are saying, however:Say we have AJ and we dont raise and the flop comes A 6 2 rainbow. If we bet out we wont get called unless someone else has an ace, and we miss out on really punishing our opponents loose tendencies.Say we have KJ, flop comes J 7 4 rainbow- we will get called down by a 7 and even perhaps a 4 if we raise preflop, for 2 reasons- the pot is large, so our opponents naturally tend to chase more, and they may put us on a hand like Aq or AK and figure their hand is good- this i have seen alot.My general style is just to bash up on my opponents as often as i can when m playing 6 max (which happens to be jsut about all the time).Hands like 5 6 o/s (yes, isee players limp with tis bs on the button all the time) just dont connect with the flop very often, so i want to punish them while i can, that is while they are still in the hand preflop.Screech, i hear what you are saying, and i have no doubt you are a winning player because of it, i just think you could win more by being more aggressive.

#46 Actuary

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 07:25 AM

Screech,I've been unclear on the concept of giving your opponent a chance to make a bigger mistakes by keeping the pot small.let's assume they go to SD with big pot or little pot when they flop bottom pair. Say we flopped TP and no one improves.Who cares if their odds are better on each street now, we still win a bigger pot.I don't disagree because I'm sure I don't understand something here.I can't apply the theoretical to the bankeretical.

#47 kouta43

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 07:56 AM

the idea is your opponent is going to draw regardless of the pot size, so if the pot is large he is getting the correct odds to draw, whereis if we keep the pot small he is not getting sufficient odds to try and draw out.

#48 Actuary

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 08:11 AM

kouta43 said:

the idea is your opponent is going to draw regardless of the pot size, so if the pot is large he is getting the correct odds to draw, whereis if we keep the pot small he is not getting sufficient odds to try and draw out.
that part I understand.if he's going to sd either way, we just make more when the pot is big, right?

#49 MrNiceGuy

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 08:30 AM

Actuary said:

kouta43 said:

the idea is your opponent is going to draw regardless of the pot size, so if the pot is large he is getting the correct odds to draw, whereis if we keep the pot small he is not getting sufficient odds to try and draw out.
that part I understand.if he's going to sd either way, we just make more when the pot is big, right?
Yes.I believe that the "getting you opponents to make mistakes postflop by keeping the the pot small preflop" idea is overused.For example, say a loose player limps in with 76s, a couple others limp, and you don't raise with AQo. Then, you've maginfied his postflop mistakes when he decides to chase a hand when he only has a few outs. But, you've also failed to make his preflop limp a big mistake (limping with 76s in a 4-way unraised pot will rarely be a huge mistake - whether it is a mistake, and how big that mistake is, depends on your opponents skills and your own postflop skills). On the other hand, playing 76s in a 4-way pot is clearly -EV when the pot is going to be raised.For me, in the BB in the OP's situation, I consider AJo/ATo/KQo to be the borderline cases, and whether I decide to raise with them depends on what I think of my opponents. But when I check them, rather than raise, it's because I think it's a better approach to the hand primarily because of my poor position (as well as for deception). On the button, if I decide to play these hands behind several limpers, I almost always come in with a raise.

#50 econ_tim

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Posted 10 February 2006 - 09:13 AM

MrNiceGuy said:

On the button, if I decide to play these hands behind several limpers, I almost always come in with a raise.
I agree. I would much rather push an equity edge preflop from the button.Another aspect of raising good hands from the BB after several limpers (this thread isn't really about AQ) is that you practically commit yourself to putting in another SB after the flop, when your equity will change. Sure, you will have a postflop equity edge on average, but you will get less callers when you flop good and get raised when your opponents flop good.

#51 screech

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 12:11 PM

Actuary said:

Screech,I've been unclear on the concept of giving your opponent a chance to make a bigger mistakes by keeping the pot small.let's assume they go to SD with big pot or little pot when they flop bottom pair.  Say we flopped TP and no one improves.Who cares if their odds are better on each street now, we still win a bigger pot.I don't disagree because I'm sure I don't understand something here.I can't apply the theoretical to the bankeretical.
True.But if the pot is bigger, it is now correct for them to draw. Against opponents who a naturally too loose, we want to exploit this tendency. We do this by getting them to call with insufficient pot odds. The worse calls they make, the more they lose, so the more we win.

#52 Actuary

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 03:47 PM

screech, my question is more along the lines of that post (by you?) about whether when you know lp will bet/raise and two others between you, is it better to face them with two cold with a c/r or one bet at a time with a bet, knowing lp will raise.wouldn't you rather win a bigger pot, even if the opponents make less (or no) mistake chasingif they will sd anyway..you win/lose pot same number of times.I"m really not getting it.Against opponents who will fold with improper chasing odds, it makes sense to sometime not inflate pots (like with hands KQo multiway).

#53 custom36

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Posted 11 February 2006 - 11:56 PM

I'm not sure why there are 51 replies to this. Hopefully they all say...This is standard.

#54 kouta43

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 12:40 AM

custom36 said:

I'm not sure why there are 51 replies to this.  Hopefully they all say...This is standard.
i am glad you made it 52.

#55 screech

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Posted 12 February 2006 - 09:09 AM

Actuary said:

screech, my question is more along the lines of that post (by you?) about whether when you know lp will bet/raise and two others between you, is it better to face them with two cold with a c/r or one bet at a time with a bet, knowing lp will raise.wouldn't you rather win a bigger pot, even if the opponents make less (or no) mistake chasingif they will sd anyway..you win/lose pot same number of times.I"m really not getting it.Against opponents who will fold with improper chasing odds, it makes sense to sometime not inflate pots (like with hands KQo multiway).
Are you referring to the post I made in general a few months ago?I still have no idea on whether it's better to give someone seemingly correct odds twice by building a pot, or trying to get them to fold by facing them with 2 cold. I don't think that that situation is the same here. The concept of keeping the pot small to exploit your opponents tendencies is a bit different. The general question in this thread deals with 2 streets. The number of bets that go in pf directly effect the magnitude of you opponents mistakes postflop. If you pass a small edge pf to exploit a larger one postflop, you theoretically win more even though the pots you pick up are smaller. I know this just sounds repetitive, and I don't know if I'm even answering the question you had (I don't think I am). I'm having a really hard time being articulate since I'm home for the weekend and was out all night. So if none of this makes sense, just PM me and I'll explain it all when my brain starts working again.




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