betting patterns in limit poker

[dna4ever 2]

Question for some of the limit players.In playing the same level limit for several weeks in a row on pokerstars I have came across pretty much over 50% of the same players every day and have definitely noticed some betting patterns, but still dont understand how to fully use what I have noticed.For example one note I have is pretty reliable on a player"Rarely raises unless has premium starting hand, AK, AQ, or pockets TT+ . Likes to limp with AJ, AT and medium pockets. Tends to call down all hands he raises preflop in whether makes hand or not"My problem is interpreting whether he is on a hand like AQ or KK. If I have AJ and flop is AT3 (does he have AQ or KK) or if I have 88 and flop is 37Q. (AK, AQ, TT?)I can give many examples, but these are just a few to try and see if I can explain my point. Coming from mainly a NL environment there is a lot more pot and implied odds to help make decisions where limit is more of a play the player along with your cards/odds/betting patterns.Any suggestions on how to 'read someones hand' or better interpretate betting patterns (notes here, links to articles, books, etc) would be greatly appreciated.

[justblaze 0]

make a few plays at him and see what he turns over. try checkraising the turn with your 88. But heres a question, why would you play AJ against a guy who plays nothing below 1010? i would be trying to get in with some suited connectors when he raises and bust him up if you flop a monster or a good draw. player seems pretty predictable to me...

[buzz 0]

I see about the same amt of people online as well. It can be difficult labeling someone who only plays premium hands as you described. I have tried checkraising multiple times only to be out-drawn (sucked out) by 6-2 offsuit on the river. Some players seem more predictable than others depending on the limits you are playing. You tend to leave the "calling stations" behind when you move anywhere from .25/.50 up to 3/6. I do enjoy the show downs when you catch them bluffing at pots with queen high or a busted straight.

[justblaze 0]

I see about the same amt of people online as well. It can be difficult labeling someone who only plays premium hands as you described. I have tried checkraising multiple times only to be out-drawn (sucked out) by 6-2 offsuit on the river. Some players seem more predictable than others depending on the limits you are playing. You tend to leave the "calling stations" behind when you move anywhere from .25/.50 up to 3/6. I do enjoy the show downs when you catch them bluffing at pots with queen high or a busted straight.

how can it be difficult to label someone who never mixes it up? these are the easiest players to play against.

[Smasharoo 0]

i would be trying to get in with some suited connectors when he raises and bust him up if you flop a monster or a good drawSometimes he acts after you do and occasioanlly the other 8 people at the table are in the hand, too....

[justblaze 0]

well without specific information about the other 8 players i wouldnt really be in a position to advise a play with regards to those players

[Smasharoo 0]

how can it be difficult to label someone who never mixes it up? these are the easiest players to play against.You're crazily, crazily overthinking it.The point is that he DOES mix up by not raising with anything pre-flop and calls down with anything. There's no reason to change your play against him. He's going to pay you off regularly when you have him beat and you're going to occasionally pay him off when he's playing AA unraised. For less money though.

[justblaze 0]

how can it be difficult to label someone who never mixes it up? these are the easiest players to play against.You're crazily, crazily overthinking it.The point is that he DOES mix up by not raising with anything pre-flop and calls down with anything. There's no reason to change your play against him. He's going to pay you off regularly when you have him beat and you're going to occasionally pay him off when he's playing AA unraised. For less money though.

except that hes raising top 10 and calling with 10-20. every time, it would seem. Wheres the mixing? of course, i agree with your strategy, unless hes very agressive with the premiums. then you need to try to get some sneakier hands in there.

[Rob-L 0]

For example one note I have is pretty reliable on a player"Rarely raises unless has premium starting hand, AK, AQ, or pockets TT+ . Likes to limp with AJ, AT and medium pockets. Tends to call down all hands he raises preflop in whether makes hand or not"My problem is interpreting whether he is on a hand like AQ or KK. If I have AJ and flop is AT3 (does he have AQ or KK) or if I have 88 and flop is 37Q. (AK, AQ, TT?)

He rarely raises unless he has AK, AQ or TT+ and you're wondering if he has one of these hands, so I assume in the situation you mention above he has indeed made a raise. (I'm assuming he is also on your right)If this is the case, why are you calling with AJ? Even if you have AJs vs. TT you are a slight underdog. If he is that predictable, lay down your weak hands when he raises. When he limps, punish him with raises if you have a hand better than what he usually limps with. He sounds like he is playing fairly tight, so punish him for testing the waters with inferior hands.

[AnnChristiansen 0]

My problem is interpreting whether he is on a hand like AQ or KK. If I have AJ and flop is AT3 (does he have AQ or KK) or if I have 88 and flop is 37Q. (AK, AQ, TT?)

Just to be clear, if you are wondering whether or not he has AQ or KK then I assume he must've raised because you say he rarely raises with anything less than that (and I infer that he raises with those hands).If this assumption is correct then this is how I would analyze these examples:On the first one, you must've acted first (because if he raises, you should fold AJ). The probability that you are ahead is slightly less than 1/2. What should you do? The money in the pot gives you the odds to stay in the hand. Exactly how you stay in the hand depends on how he bets. If he bets no matter what then check-call to the river (betting into him doesn't help because you say he doesn't fold so all it does is increase your variance without improving your EV). If he checks/calls when he doesn't have top pair and bets/raises when he does, then check and you'll know whether you are beat (if he bets he has AA, AK, AQ, or TT and you should fold; if he checks he has KK-JJ and you should bet the turn).[Note: The fact that you are about even in this situation might seem counter-intuitive. The A in your hand and the A on the board greatly reduces the probability that he has AA, AK, or AQ. If you happen to know that another A has folded then you have a significant edge.]On the second hand, you must've acted first (for the same reason). Here, the likelihood that you are beat is huge (the only hand that you are ahead of is AK). And since he calls when he doesn't have a hand a bluff won't work so you should check-fold.This analysis changes, of course, if you are not heads up or if you are in a special situation (e.g., on the blind).More broadly, calculate the probability that he has each hand given your hand and the flop. And then bet accordingly.

[TheHammer24 0]

Even though you know exactly how he plays, it doesn't mean you're going to win every hand against him. He plays realy good limit poker. It's hard to lose a lot of money when you play tight and raise with the right hands. My advice would be to try and sit to his left, so you'll act after him when you sit at the table. That way when he raises preflop you can get out of the hand if your hand isn't that good. One thing would be to raise him on the flop. He seems like the player who would reraise if he actually had a good hand. However, many times people will smooth call a raised flop if they know they have a better hand.

[justblaze 0]

Even though you know exactly how he plays, it doesn't mean you're going to win every hand against him. He plays realy good limit poker. It's hard to lose a lot of money when you play tight and raise with the right hands.

actually a player like this would have trouble making any money in a good game. As soon as people figure it out, hes not gonna get any action.

[AnnChristiansen 0]

If this is the case, why are you calling with AJ? Even if you have AJs vs. TT you are a slight underdog.

You are correct that he is a slight dog with AJs against TT, but after he's limped with AJs and been raised by TT there is enough money (more than enough money, in fact) in the pot to justify calling the raise. This is even a better play if the guy is going to call to the river when AJ improves.

[justblaze 0]

If this is the case, why are you calling with AJ? Even if you have AJs vs. TT you are a slight underdog.

You are correct that he is a slight dog with AJs against TT, but after he's limped with AJs and been raised by TT there is enough money (more than enough money, in fact) in the pot to justify calling the raise. This is even a better play if the guy is going to call to the river when AJ improves.

against AQ hes drawing to 3 outs, thats the problem. 1010 is his optimal scenario and about the worst hand the guy could have, apparently.

[Royal_Tour 0]

HERE'S THE TIP OF THE DAY FOR YOU!Your talking about Low Limit tables., play a lot of pre-flop / flops. dont get crazy, but you have to start playing some garbage once in a while.And if nothin hits post flop.. get the hell out!.Thats it., use your skill and knowledge of odds to help you maximise your payouts.

[AnnChristiansen 0]

against AQ hes drawing to 3 outs, thats the problem. 1010 is his optimal scenario and about the worst hand the guy could have, apparently.

He's fine when an A hits. And since the opponent is calling down while he isn't, the play is gOOt.

[Smasharoo 0]

"Rarely raises unless has premium starting hand, AK, AQ, or pockets TT+ . Likes to limp with AJ, AT and medium pockets. Tends to call down all hands he raises preflop in whether makes hand or not" I apologise, I misread this.I thought he was limping with everything.He's a tight/weak calling station. I want 9 of him in any game I play. He's playing basically correctly pre-flop and calling down post-flop when he's beat and not raising when he's ahead.I can't see how you'd lose money against him long termPlaying well pre-flop is about 1/9th of playing Holdem well.

[Smasharoo 0]

HERE'S THE TIP OF THE DAY FOR YOU!Your talking about Low Limit tables., play a lot of pre-flop / flops. dont get crazy, but you have to start playing some garbage once in a while.Yeah, that's wrong.The occasional good flop you'll get with a disguised hand doesn't compensate for all the money you piss away coming in with Q4s UTG or whatever.

[NormanHaupt 0]

man.. feel like y'all talking about me.'cept I don't call down to the river every time. I usually stop at the turn

[Karis13 0]

HAHAHA Sad to say that's me too. Just normal text book starting hands from given positions. No raises from early unless you have Group 1 or Group 2 hands, limp with small-mid pockets and don't be the first person to call a raise unless you have a very good starting hand. Predictable but profitable. Also leads to bluffing pots on the turn from good startin hands. I can't say there is anything wrong with it.

[Royal_Tour 0]

HERE'S THE TIP OF THE DAY FOR YOU!Your talking about Low Limit tables., play a lot of pre-flop / flops. dont get crazy, but you have to start playing some garbage once in a while.Yeah, that's wrong.The occasional good flop you'll get with a disguised hand doesn't compensate for all the money you censored away coming in with Q4s UTG or whatever.

We'll moron., Instead of assuming you know what i'm talking about why dont you ask first., Queen 4 off suit is worse than garbage., i'm talking about playing low suited cards, or low connectors. And besides., your little "50 - 1000" experiment is exactly what i do at the local casino. I'll go when i'm bored and play on the 2-5 limit tables, So i know for a fact that folding closer to 65 - 70% of your hands is a better ratio for odds, rather than a no-limit game where u would fold 80% and up. Example: the 2 $ BB is well worth the 45 pot when u stuck in with 4, 6 suited.

[NormanHaupt 0]

you got 30 posts.. and you're telling someone with 2100 posts (pretty fricking close to it anyway) he knows nothing about poker..?Do you have trouble buying cowboy hats with that inflated head?

[Smasharoo 0]

i'm talking about playing low suited cards, or low connectors. The occasional good flop you'll get with a disguised hand doesn't compensate for all the money you censored away coming in with 54s UTG or whatever.Understand yet, or should I try to comunicate in some fashion more appropriate to your learning abilities?I'm not sure if I can get a puppet show together on short notice, but let me know if that would help.

[justblaze 0]

HERE'S THE TIP OF THE DAY FOR YOU!Your talking about Low Limit tables., play a lot of pre-flop / flops. dont get crazy, but you have to start playing some garbage once in a while.Yeah, that's wrong.The occasional good flop you'll get with a disguised hand doesn't compensate for all the money you censored away coming in with Q4s UTG or whatever.

We'll moron., Instead of assuming you know what i'm talking about why dont you ask first., Queen 4 off suit is worse than garbage., i'm talking about playing low suited cards, or low connectors. And besides., your little "50 - 1000" experiment is exactly what i do at the local casino. I'll go when i'm bored and play on the 2-5 limit tables, So i know for a fact that folding closer to 65 - 70% of your hands is a better ratio for odds, rather than a no-limit game where u would fold 80% and up. Example: the 2 $ BB is well worth the 45 pot when u stuck in with 4, 6 suited.

what the hell are you talking about. you are comparing limit preflop percentages to NL preflop percentages? apples and oranges. there was no mention of NL anywhere in this thread. Why would he have to assume what you are talking about when it is written right there.Your talking about Low Limit tables., play a lot of pre-flop / flops. dont get crazy, but you have to start playing some garbage once in a while. this implies playing way more than 35%, which by the way is about right. Q4 is garbage. so are 'low connectors'. so are 'low suited cards'. all garbage. what do you think will win more, 45o or Q4o? what the hell is a ratio for odds?

[Royal_Tour 0]

Ok. obviously tryin to keep my posts short, isnt working for any of you.. so i'l explain in depth.. Playing low limit tables, it is ok to play a higher percentage of hands. I was only comparing the fact that NL and LL are two completely diferent gamesNow my whole argument was that its worth spending 2 dollars in a low limit game with cards like 4, 6 of hearts. not every time, and NO.. i dont mean queen 4 is good!. i would never play a hand like queen 4, but i would play 4, 6 suited any day .,, (No limit, is completely diff). Now I assume your all aware that Daniel Negreanu's Favourite hand is the 10, 7 off suit.. i mean you guys do visite his forum everyday.So, to make my point even more clear. You can spend all day playing ace, king, and walk away a loser. because you raise, you invest, and when it all boils down to it, in low limit. "luck" is a huge factor. Lets not forget, it is a game of mixed skill and chance. And in my own opinion,, i wont raise a low limit game pre-flop, unless my cards are amazing, or i'm in position. because there is always 2 or 3 people at your table with too much money, and they'll chase cards all day.P.S. The amount of posts you have does not make you a better player. I think a lot of people here believe there is 1 set way to play poker., 1 true way which is above all the rest. Poker has no set defined way of playing. there is only 1 true game/ sport in the world that has no luck involved.