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religion should be kept out of poker


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#41 swiftD777

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 04:24 AM

Canada said:

Firstly it would seem that anybody with a talent, whether it's public speaking, singing or fixing cars can use that talent to make money.
There is an obvious distinction between using your talents to earn a living, such as what a car mechanic does, and having your talent be to actually generate massive amounts of cash. Not too many blue collar workers I know of can say they made 69K in a day. That does not make the "average joe" a lesser human, they just do not have the skillset that DN has for generating revenue.I think this is all that DN was getting at.If Daniel starts blessing his opponents at the table, or if he spouts off while dragging in a big pot about being a "cardplaying crusader," who is on a mission to take your money to give to god, then you can start to complain. If the guy wants to talk about something that is important to him in his personal journal (that he happens to make available to the masses), then leave him be.

#42 Canada

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 04:31 AM

swiftD777 said:

If Daniel starts blessing his opponents at the table, or if he spouts off while dragging in a big pot about being a "cardplaying crusader," who is on a mission to take your money to give to god, then you can start to complain. If the guy wants to talk about something that is important to him in his personal journal (that he happens to make available to the masses), then leave him be.
I'm hoping that is directed at the OP and not me.I think its fairly obvious from my posts in this thread that I am very comfortable about DN's public handling of his faith , and in fact applaud him on it
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#43 rp_Froggy

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 07:57 AM

Many posters are saying you shouldn't thank God for this or God doesn't care about that. I have to agree with DN that nobody really knows God's thoughts.The scriptures are the best place to gauge where God may stand on an issue.According to scriptures God is concerned with every part of your life and every hair on your head.There is nothing wrong with being grateful to God for your health, friends, and of course achievements (poker skill and/or victories).I am also seeing a lot of posts regarding the fact that having money is not a Christian thing to do. The bible has a lot of reference to money, including the fact that money is the root of many evils. In order to understand any scripture it must be taken in context and compared to other similar scriptures to get a solid interpretation.Money is not evil! King David was used by God in many ways. He was very rich and also had his share of problems. Money becomes a problem when it is used for evil or if it becomes and idol. It is my understanding that the biggest biblical problem with money is it can easily become a false idol and worshiped ahead of God. That makes how one handles money a sin, not having money.There are many solid biblical figures who had excess money and were still referred to as Christian's and followers of Christ. The fact is they were generous with their money, but not to the point that they themselves became poor.You will also notice that people quote one line of scripture that may loosely relate to an aspect of gambling. The reason for these ambiguous quotes is there is not direct dealing with gambling. As with many things, how you handle a situation often defines whether it is sinful or not.I would argue that Poker is no more or less sinful than any other sporting activity for profit. There are certainly a lot of peripheral activities that surround poker that are clearly sinful, but that in itself does not make poker wrong.If one is a Christian, then there is a right and wrong. The posters that state that all interpretations are valid are acceptable for a non-Christian, but I hope Christians are not posting those sentiments.My two cents. Didnít have time to dig out a bunch of scripture, but I think you will find the statements to be relatively accurate.

#44 cemo76

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 11:50 AM

Daniel, don't get me wrong man, I totally agree with your point that you are given certain talents in this world and if you use them properly to benefit society then you will truly be rewarded by your good deeds. All I am saying is that it is complicated to tie Poker into the equation. Regardless of how many people and charities you help there wil still be other who suffer from the act of how the money and popularity was attained. Imagine you rob a bank but give all the money to the hungry and poor. Can we justify the fact that the banks are insured and we did the right thing? It is a Tough predicament to be in. If you get to religious and truly find GOD then there must be NO EGO. It is a Dervish belief that once you have let go of your ego 100%, (meaning nothing but good work or good will ever enters your soul) then you truly have Found God. If you want some good reading material check it out. Yunus Emre of sufi related subjects. I believe in God 100% but try and keep it separate from my gambling or drining. Tying them together is a tricky situaton to balance.

#45 nutzbuster

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 04:35 PM

DanielNegreanu said:

Canada said:

DanielNegreanu said:

but why is it hard for people to understand that God needs people on Earth to make money to fund his causes?
This seems a little strange DN - care to expand?
It is my belief that God gives everyone specific talents that they can either use to help Him or use for themselves. Some people are great at dealing with people. You could use that to show support for those in need, or you could use that gift to swindle people as well. God gave some people the gift of being great public speakers. That tool could be used in ministry, or it could be used to become a shady politician. I think God gave me several gifts and one of those gifts was the ability to accumulate a lot of money in a short time if I had to. What I do with that money would reflect on whether or not I'm helping to do God's work, or instead using that money to achieve personal goals.
Often times I have difficulty trying to explain to the hard core Christians in my family these very same concepts. It is an uphill battle. I appreciate you sharing your take on this and I think your point of view is right on the money (no pun intended). Next time I stumble into this debate with my family I'll have a little more focus. Perhaps it will improve their vision too.Peace!



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#46 nosoul

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 09:10 PM

Longshanks said:

its called freedom of religion people, not freedom FROM religion
Here's the exact wording of the Bill of Rights.Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.So, actually, freedom FROM religion is listed first. Before freedom OF religion. Thank you for playing, though.

#47 petersun

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 10:03 PM

I am both a big fan of Daniel and a Christian and so I actually want to hear more about his relationship with God. But I think (I am guessing here) he has been quite respectful of his readers and kept that part of his life less expressed. I suspect that his faith is a huge part of his life, but we don't really hear about it. For him not to post about that part of his life is a loss for those of us who want to know him as a person.With regards to occupation, Christians are always facing tough challenges. Should a Christian work at a Casino? How about at a store that sells beer? Can a Christian take a job as a secretary at a tobacco company? It's actually not very hard for someone to make a case using scripture to say that no Christian should be working for a mortgage company, credit card company, or a bank.But these are struggles that have no easy answers. Each Christian resolves it differently because the Bible doesn't directly address these issues. It doesn't say "A Christian should not be a Poker Player" or "A person should not be a alcohol merchant." What they do know (and what the Bible is clear about) is the person and nature of God and His general wishes and desires of what right living is and his specific instructions on some life issues. For all the remaining "gray" areas, Christians try their best to figure out what is okay and not okay with God given what they know are absolutely right and wrong. Given that Daniel has determined that Poker and the way he plays it is okay with God, he is right in trying to play it to the best of his ability because God appreciates excellence (especially if it's excellence achieved because the believer understands that God is pleased with excellence). It so happens that in the profession of Poker that means making a lot of money. Now, Christians believe that all wealth is God's anyway, so that's why Daniel believes that what he does with that money will be how he will be judged by God. Therefore, I'm assuming he's found ways to do God's work with that money (although I can't be sure cause he never posts about it in his BLOG).

#48 Longshanks

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Posted 04 February 2006 - 11:49 PM

nosoul said:

Longshanks said:

its called freedom of religion people, not freedom FROM religion
Here's the exact wording of the Bill of Rights.Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.So, actually, freedom FROM religion is listed first. Before freedom OF religion. Thank you for playing, though.
where the hell has religion been established? i dont see up there where it says I cant talk about it? as a matter of fact it says i can talk about it ALLLLLLL i want, so thank YOU for playing....donk

#49 gobears

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Posted 05 February 2006 - 10:41 PM

cemo76 said:

Daniel, don't get me wrong man, I totally agree with your point that you are given certain talents in this world and if you use them properly to benefit society then you will truly be rewarded by your good deeds. All I am saying is that it is  complicated to tie Poker into the equation. Regardless of how many people and charities you help there wil still be other who suffer from the act of how the money and popularity was attained. Imagine you rob a bank but give all the money to the hungry and poor. Can we justify the fact that the banks are insured and we did the right thing? It is a Tough predicament to be in. If you get to religious and truly find GOD then there must be NO EGO. It is a Dervish belief that once you have let go of your ego 100%, (meaning nothing but good work or good will ever enters your soul) then you truly have Found God. If you want some good reading material check it out. Yunus Emre of sufi related subjects. I believe in God 100% but try and keep it separate from my gambling or drining. Tying them together is a tricky situaton to balance.
Who is suffering from how the money & popularity was attained? A lot of people lost everything during the tech/internet stock market crash in 2000, maybe we should nail all those terrible brokers and stock analysts! And robbing a bank was a crime last time I checked - I don't think that poker is. Terrible analogy.
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#50 cabbage

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Posted 06 February 2006 - 10:02 PM

Just like some of your fans.. I too have no faith in a god or higher being judging my every move and thought..I have learned to take full responsibility for my actions and not blame or take credit for concidences that randomly happen..With that said..Daniel, Do you honestly believe that god is watching you play cards and since you prayed last night and your opponent didnt ..that he will reward you?come on..sincerely...satan

#51 pokerhoney28

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Posted 07 February 2006 - 09:11 PM

cemo76 said:

You guys are missing the POINT. All I said was that it is Wrong to Thank GOD for helping you win at POKER. Daniel stated he played better because of GOD ( generalization). I totally disagree with fact that God would aknowledge Daniels Poker status when there are kids starving, people dying and desease being fought. You should Thank God for your Good Fortunes, Health and FAmily but not for winning at Poker.The same goes for a soccer player when they score a GOAL. GOd helped me score the goal??Thats is ridiculous man! Also you all act like Beating someone at Poker is a regular JOb? Who are you kidding. IT is gambling at its deepest Core. I play Poker but Admit it is not an admirable thing. I choose to play just as others choose to play. Whether it is a profession, hobby or a great rush we all have our reasons. YOu don't deserve a Pulitser Prize or a library named after you for being a poker player. YOu just play cards man! PS. I totally believe in free democracy. CAnadian Style. First and foremost everyone must have the same education and medical care. The rest is all up in the air for grabs!!
Correction.....poker is a skill game, not gambling.For DN winning at poker...like all poker professionals that is their job: to WIN!!Blackjack is gamblingSlots are gambling.....Gambling on sports....Gambling on Horses....dogs...need I go on?Gambling in its truest definition: To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest.To play a game of chance for stakes.To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit.To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke.Poker is somewhat a game of chance, however it is by using you're skill in playing the players, not just you're cards that makes it a game of skill...not complete chance. The only thing that is chance is the cards uncertainty. Then again you have control on when to hold 'em or fold 'em.However, when you are playing against other players and it is based on the best 5 card hand or whatever card game. That is all skill, there is no gambling involved. You can play for no money. Money just adds to the excitement of the game. By Daniel praising God, in actuality is thanking him for blessing him with a gift(talent) for poker. God wants us to praise him when we are blessed with something great. It's our way of saying "Thanks God."Taken from the site: http://www.newgenius.../blessingab.htmGod not only gives people money, food, clothing, shelter, and other things that are necessary for life, but he also gives people talents that they can use to help others and themselves. That includes the gifts to be able to play poker.I am a Christian, I'm not a Bible thumper. However, it is our human right to have the Right to Free Speech. And Daniel has that right, just like anyone of us to talk about what we choose. Those are our freedoms. And for you to say that it's wrong, is also your human right. If you still have any questions about Poker being a game of skill or is it gambling here is another site who can put a different spin on it and you can draw your own conclusion: http://www.cardplaye...d=12519&m_id=31
Can I ask why you called that raise with THAT!?

Reply: They were suited

#52 cemo76

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Posted 08 February 2006 - 12:20 PM

You make some valid points. I respect that. Daniel can Thank who ever he wants, no questions asked. I was just pointing out that others (not me) could take offence. BUt it is Freedom Of Speech which is what makes it a beautiful thing.I do disagree with you that Poker is Not gambing. It is GAmbling against others with more thought and mental game then other events. I do agree that you need more skill to win at poker, but the same can be said for Blackjack players that count cards ??

#53 pokerhoney28

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Posted 08 February 2006 - 06:15 PM

I was just curious about that b/cAs I gave earlier....the definition of gambling: To bet on an uncertain outcome, as of a contest. To play a game of chance for stakes. To take a risk in the hope of gaining an advantage or a benefit. To engage in reckless or hazardous behavior: You are gambling with your health by continuing to smoke. By playing for fun with no stakes of any kind involved does not make it gambling. [/b]
Can I ask why you called that raise with THAT!?

Reply: They were suited

#54 pokerhoney28

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Posted 08 February 2006 - 06:24 PM

If you have any further disagreements on wether poker is gambling here is a site for you: http://www.gambling-us.com/poker.htmlOh and I do stand corrected Black Jack is a game of skill as well.
Can I ask why you called that raise with THAT!?

Reply: They were suited

#55 cemo76

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 09:05 AM

Hun, You are starting to get annoying!!!I know you haven't gotten any in 28 years but lay of my post's you NERD:)What the hell was that essay you wrote in the "woman players are easy" forum. Damn, If I wanted to take a course on Feminism I would have enrolled. Anyway, Who said we were playing poker for fun. MAybe you play strip poker wih your Butch girlfriends but others are a little more serious. Get it through your THICK DYKE head. POKER IS GAMBLING! Men are better at it. Bottom line. If you need proof let me know when you are on line at ultimatebet.com anytime any stakes! I don't think I can make it out to your trailor in NEBRASKA anytime soon.Sincerly THE MAN!

#56 pokerhoney28

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Posted 09 February 2006 - 05:28 PM

Well.....hmmm seems to me that whatever neanderthalic ideas that you have about me, are just proof enough that you are a blabbering and chauvanistic pig/ idiot. If you choose to respond with childish name calling and stereotypical (aka calling me a dyke because you think I'm a feminist and I have the sources behind what I am saying that agree with me; based on your opinion and it doesn't agree with you- because I have a brain) Then I pity your life and your extremely twisted thought process. Just like yourself, I have a right to express my opinion and when someone is calling me weak and a poor player because I am a woman....I will backup my argument and "shit" so to speak with sources and evidence. That does not in any context make me a lesbian/ dyke, or a feminist.
Can I ask why you called that raise with THAT!?

Reply: They were suited

#57 neretva

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 06:29 PM

Disclaimer: I am an atheist and extremely proud of it. The bottom line in all of this is that religious conviction is based on faith, not logic. You are all making the mistake of attempting to use deductive and inductive reasoning to determine if gambling is or is not God's will.God is an invention of man, therefore one can make the case that gambling is His will. Or it is not. There can never be Truth in this discussion since God's will is postulated as being unknowable. Any attempt to debate what is postulated as unknowable must, by definition and necessity, degenerate into total subjectivity.Therefore, DN saying that he lives a Godly life is unassailable. Such a life is basically whatever you want it to be, therefore it is self-contradictory to argue for or against.Morals have nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Therefore, the question must be asked whether the life of a professional gambler can be a moral life. The answer is clearly: Of course it can. As long as a gambler is unfailingly honest, he can lead the same moral life as the rest of us.If the measure of a good life is self-gratification, a gambler leads a very moral life. If the standard is compassion and helping those less fortunate, then most gamblers do NOT lead moral lives. However, DN does because he is obviously compassionate and he has used his money to help those less fortunate. Not that he has to. But he does. Therefore he is leading a good life. Period. Accumulating some cars or homes is NOT a sin. If it were, I'd hate to see where Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell are going to end up. Or the Pope for that matter...The bottom line is: It is not what you believe in, but what you do, that will "echo in eternity". -Marc

#58 RodReynolds

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 08:07 AM

I'd just like to add a point to this discussion which seems to have wrapped up. I think, arguing from a biblical perspective, that this is a difficult question regarding whether professional poker playing can be merged with Christianity. As Daniel mentioned, God does provide people with gifts which are able to make large sums of money in order to fund his causes. However, it is also clear (to me at least) that the Bible says that our work is to be "useful". Now, I guess it is debatable as to whether or not "useful" means the end result of our work (ie the good that is done with the money we make), or the actual work itself. It seems that God is concerned with the actual work we do, that it must be useful, purposeful, achieving a goal. I think most of us can agree that poker is at best fundamentally useless. It is a zero sum game, passing money back and forth. I suppose you could argue that professional poker players are providing "entertainment" to those they are playing with, and I suppose I shouldn't glibly brush that aside. But maybe I will. Daniel mentions that poker is similar to playing in the NBA, or investing in stocks. Most or all of his examples though are different from poker in the sense that there is a purpose in these other activities. In the NBA, players are providing entertainment . In investing, you are providing capital for companies to grow and presumably serve society in some way. I know that this is a bit simplistic and that most areas of business have been corrupted to a form that is far from the ideal. However I think it is dangerous to equate them to poker in some way and therefore state that since we've accepted the other things as ok, that poker is ok too. It is wise to argue from first principles whatever those first principles may be. I have by no means sorted this all out in my own mind, and I'm sure there are many errors and missteps in logic in my above post. I am very open to correction (or I think I am), and a discussion.

#59 Jennings7

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 04:16 PM

God can be everywhere at once. He is all powerful. Saying he wouldn't care about one thing due to other things is obsurd. It's not like he has to focus on one thing at a time. He has total power. So don't use the line "there are people starving so god doesn't have the time to help Daniel."
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#60 tommyrotten

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 04:39 PM

View Postneretva, on Monday, February 13th, 2006, 6:29 PM, said:

Disclaimer: I am an atheist and extremely proud of it. The bottom line in all of this is that religious conviction is based on faith, not logic. You are all making the mistake of attempting to use deductive and inductive reasoning to determine if gambling is or is not God's will.God is an invention of man, therefore one can make the case that gambling is His will. Or it is not. There can never be Truth in this discussion since God's will is postulated as being unknowable. Any attempt to debate what is postulated as unknowable must, by definition and necessity, degenerate into total subjectivity.Therefore, DN saying that he lives a Godly life is unassailable. Such a life is basically whatever you want it to be, therefore it is self-contradictory to argue for or against.Morals have nothing whatsoever to do with religion. Therefore, the question must be asked whether the life of a professional gambler can be a moral life. The answer is clearly: Of course it can. As long as a gambler is unfailingly honest, he can lead the same moral life as the rest of us.If the measure of a good life is self-gratification, a gambler leads a very moral life. If the standard is compassion and helping those less fortunate, then most gamblers do NOT lead moral lives. However, DN does because he is obviously compassionate and he has used his money to help those less fortunate. Not that he has to. But he does. Therefore he is leading a good life. Period. Accumulating some cars or homes is NOT a sin. If it were, I'd hate to see where Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell are going to end up. Or the Pope for that matter...The bottom line is: It is not what you believe in, but what you do, that will "echo in eternity". -Marc
Well said, Marc. TYVM.




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