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religion should be kept out of poker


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#1 cemo76

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 04:20 PM

With all due respect to Daniel, he should not preach religious values on a poker forum. Don't get me wrong, its his Forum and he has the right to post whatever he wants but it is kinda of tasteless to say his game is better now because of the christian lifestyle he has found again. Religion should be kept 100 miles away from any poker forum. It can be found in churches, peaceworkers or charities saving children in Africa. We all know that GAmbling is not the most religious of activities and for all the money Daniel has made thousands more have lost their savings. NOt that there is anything unjust with that as people play freely of their own will. But it should not be said that religion has helped Daniel win at POKER. I prefer to keep the two subjects totally isolated from one another. We all play poker and know the risks involved, but we must admit it is in no way a morally correct activity. It's like a Secular Government. They keep the state and religion isolated. Meaning apart from one another. Lets keep Poker that way as well.THanks..

#2 chrozzo

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 05:09 PM

What does it say above the ONE on the back of the one dollar bill....hmmmm, i forget, anyone know?
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#3 DanielNegreanu

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 05:13 PM

Well, I couldn't disagree with you more on several fronts. It's my blog about my personal life. God is part of my personal life. I don't "preach" to you or anybody about what you should be doing. I share with you the reasons why I think I do well, and the things that I find have made me a happy person. Why should I hide the fact that I beleive in God? Why should I hide the fact that I think it's ridiculous to call a Christmas tree a Holiday tree? As for poker being morally wrong, that is ludicrous and there is no argument that supports that notion. If poker is morally wrong, then there isn't a profittable business in the world that isn't "morally wrong" to some degree. Some people are going to suck at poker and lose a lot of money at it too. They need to find another line of work. Some people aren't smart enough to get a law degree and become a lawyer. They need to find another line of work. Some people aren't talented enough to play in the NBA. They need to find another line of work. The argument that with poker you can actually lose money doesn't hold weight. Time spent chasing an NBA career that doesn't materialize costs that person money. They could have been working. I've read way too many uninformed posts where people falsely assume that being a professional gambler is forbidden in the Bible. Not one post ever quoted one single line of scripture where God clearly states that you shouldn't gamble for a living. It also doesn't say in the Bible that people shouldn't drink alcohol. It says that you shouldn't become a drunkard, but not that you shouldn't drink.
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#4 chrozzo

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 05:22 PM

"He who oppresses the poor to get gain for himself, and he who gives to the rich will surely come to want" (Proverbs 22:16).Some Christians argue that gambling does no harm. However, the scripture is clear that this activity is sinful. Anytime someone is enticed to gain money at someone's else's certain loss, this is definitely not practicing the principals taught by Christ. Also, the practice of gambling takes away from the Bible's principals of economics -- working, saving and giving. Discipline and accountability for spending are ignored. Gambling preys on the weakness of others.
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#5 chrozzo

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 05:26 PM

Dont get me wrong. I am a CHristian, and I believe that going overboard with gambling and drinking is not looked upon happily by God. I love to play poker and will continue to do so. Even though I am a recreational poker player, I realize the importance of not letting poker define my life. I get my schoolwork done when I need to, I set aside time for my devotions and my family. I think Daniel exhibits a fine model of a CHristian. He is a great sportsman and shows utmost class when at the poker table. He has many more things going on his his life OTHER than poker, and that is something to be admired in his profession.
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#6 cemo76

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 05:33 PM

Bro, You are absoloutly right in the fact that people "choose" to gamble and if they lose they can not blame anyone but themselves. BUt you are smart enough to realize that there are some people that can not control gambling thus become addicts. Once they are inflamed into the addiction they continue to lose and lose and lose. THus hurting themselves their children and their families. WHo are innocent bystanders that depend on that money. GAmbling is proven to be addictive and last I read was a sin in most religions including Islam, Judism and Islam. BUt I am not arguing that caus eyour right it can be interperted differently. BUT YOu can not honestly compare a lawyer or basketball player to a Poker Player. They are way different in all realms. When a basketball player beats another player that player still gets paid. When a lawyer wins his defense case the Prosecuter still gets paid. Take a step back and listen to yourself. "I have found spiritual guidance from God" thus I am a better poker player. NO that is INCORRECT Man. You are a better person for sure!!!! By all means, you help everyone from family to strangers. YOu have done more positive then negative, BUt you don't help the hundres of thousands that lose their life savings to gambling addiction. I am a firm believer in GOd myself and pray almost everyday. BUt never would i relate it into gambling because for one persons fortune is another mans Life Loss. So that is the Dilema?Ps. I am not a devotely religious person by any stretch of the imsgination. JUst felt that your other blog was glorifying Christianity as the savoir to your Tournament play.Toronto Allumni.......

#7 MisterFancypants

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 05:44 PM

Between this post and the "women are easy" one I have to believe you're just trolling here, but what the hell...I have absolutely no faith in a god, but what you're responding to is Daniel's blog, period. If God and faith are part of his life, they are fair game for him to mention in his blog. It isn't like he's saying they should have an official prayer before every tournament, so what does any of this have to do with "religion staying out of poker"?

#8 MisterFancypants

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 05:45 PM

Between this post and the "women are easy" one I have to believe you're just trolling here, but what the hell...I have absolutely no faith in a god, but what you're responding to is Daniel's blog, period. If God and faith are part of his life, they are fair game for him to mention in his blog. It isn't like he's saying they should have an official prayer before every tournament, so what does any of this have to do with "religion staying out of poker"?

#9 cfinnn

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 05:52 PM

"Morally wrong" is simply a phrase that should not be used. Its only purpose is to pass judgement on others and no good ever comes of that. Unless we are referring to a serial killer, I hope we can all refrain from using phrases like this. The stigma associated with poker is something that has begun to bother me lately. Now, as someone who is already a filmmaker and has heard no end of comments about the "type of people" who inhabit the film industry, I have already had my fill of this type of bias. It's amazing how so many people defer to what they've been told by speculators outside of the industry who are certain they know what goes on within it, even though they've never, for a single day, worked in that industry.As I slowly approach my goal of making a descent living playing poker and then hopefully using the extra funds to bankroll my filmmaking, I have been met with surprising intolerance. When I first told my father that I was not looking for work because I was already paying my rent and bills by playing poker he instantly went on a rant saying, "Poker is just about bluffing... There are x many gambling addicts out there... and Al Capone..." I have no idea how Al Capone relates to poker other than the fact that he is a criminal and clearly my father's brain goes from poker to gambling addiction to criminal in the span of less than a minute. This is unfortunate.As a "young" poker player I appreciate those who strive to make the game more acceptable in the eyes of those outside the business, as it makes things easier for all of us.Now, I am not a religious person so I would not be able to intelligently discuss how religion relates to poker, other than to say that as a spiritual person, my beliefs relate to everything I do in my life. I imagine that was what was being shared with us in Daniel's blog and took it as such. Having said that, perhaps the original poster here interpreted the blog post as I would when I hear football players say, "I'd like to thank God for our winning the game today." (Side note - a little joke - 'You never hear football players say, "We would have won the game, but Jesus made me fumble!"')Anyway, I hope we can all be a little easier on each other around here and give each other the benefit of the doubt. There has been quite a bit of bad energy around these forums lately so I've stayed away. This site and these forums are what we make it. I hope we can make it something better than it is.

#10 cemo76

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 06:00 PM

Bro, I am not trolling at all. I believe that woman are weaker players. No if's and's or But's about it. Would be willing to play any woman in the world anytime anywhere and would be more then confident that I would destroy them. I also believe that Religion should not be discussed in Poker Forum's? My personal Opinion. Daniel was the one who in his Blog stated he knew he was going to win or play better, I am not sure which because lately he has been closer to GOD. Thus opening up the discussion for this post. I Beleieve in God and still love Poker. If a Man chooses to bet his week's wages then he should be man enough to swallow it when i send him to the rail. But after I do I will not Thank God for his help.Do you understand my point now?

#11 Naked_Cowboy

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 06:50 PM

So by investing in a mutual fund that performs at a rate above prime, according to chozzo, i'm sinning. For investments to do better than the average and make me money, then there have to be people losing money with investments below the average. I'll defend my faith in God litereally to the death, but you're extrapolating the scriptures here in a way that no longer carries the spirit they're written in. Daniel isn't oppressing anyone here. He's not a con artist or a swindler.

#12 Figger

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 06:58 PM

Ok...This is nonsense. DN has the right to thank anyone he wants to for his good fortune. He can thank his mother, father, brother, wife or Smokey the Bear. Whether he is playing poker, basketball, baseball, Nascar, football, hockey or Go Fish for that matter.We've all seen the award shows for acting, music, broadway, etc. where they thank God for all of their gifts in their life. This is no different. I personally do not believe the Bible to be a literal fact of events, rather a guideline on how to live your life and treat other people. You can believe what you want and I have that same choice, but I will never take anything written word for word and being from the lips of God (this is a completely different discussion)My point being, for each person, they can thank whomever they want. And please, somebody better come up with a better line in the Bible to say God does not believe people should play poker...If that's the best you got then the Capitalist system altogether is a sin.Discuss.
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#13 chrozzo

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 07:04 PM

cemo76 said:

Bro, I am not trolling at all. I believe that woman are weaker players. No if's and's or But's about it.  Would be willing to play any woman in the world anytime anywhere and would be more then confident that I would destroy them. I also believe that Religion should not be discussed in Poker Forum's? My personal Opinion. Daniel was the one who in his Blog stated he knew he was going to win or play better, I am not sure which because lately he has been closer to GOD. Thus opening up the discussion for this post. I Beleieve in God and still love Poker. If a Man chooses to bet his week's wages then he should be man enough to swallow it when i send him to the rail. But after I do I will not Thank God for his help.Do you understand my point now?
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#14 Longshanks

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 08:26 PM

its called freedom of religion people, not freedom FROM religion

#15 princeof56k

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 08:45 PM

There's a lot of flaws in your argument here.

chrozzo said:

"He who oppresses the poor to get gain for himself, and he who gives to the rich will surely come to want" (Proverbs 22:16).
This isnt related to gambling what-so-ever, and I think you missed the main point of quote. It is much more apllicable to con-artist/theives or even politicians or businesses that prey upon poor people.

chrozzo said:

Some Christians argue that gambling does no harm. However, the scripture is clear that this activity is sinful.
No is isnt, Gambling isnt mentioned anywhere in the Bible. As a matter of fact, many Churches have bingo or raffles and are basically the only forms of legal gambling in states that dont otherwise allow it.

chrozzo said:

Anytime someone is enticed to gain money at someone's else's certain loss, this is definitely not practicing the principals taught by Christ.
You have basically just condemed every business on the planet. Running a business corruptly is wrong and the same goes for corrupt gamblers. That doesnt mean that all businesses or gamblers are sinful.

chrozzo said:

Also, the practice of gambling takes away from the Bible's principals of economics -- working, saving and giving. Discipline and accountability for spending are ignored.
No it doesnt. Gamblers can still save and give. Greenstien gives a lot of money to charity, and I'm sure other do as well. It's just not as publicized. I would even say that some gamblers are fairly hard working (you have to put in a lot of hours in live play to make good money). It's not sweat shop class type work, but its work none the less.

chrozzo said:

Gambling preys on the weakness of others.
Attempting to win a game isnt sinful. Nobody is making these people play. In almost every facet of our lives their are winners and losers. There's nothing sinful about that. Its just the way the world works.

#16 nutzbuster

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 10:34 PM

chrozzo said:

"He who oppresses the poor to get gain for himself, and he who gives to the rich will surely come to want" (Proverbs 22:16).Some Christians argue that gambling does no harm. However, the scripture is clear that this activity is sinful. Anytime someone is enticed to gain money at someone's else's certain loss, this is definitely not practicing the principals taught by Christ. Also, the practice of gambling takes away from the Bible's principals of economics -- working, saving and giving. Discipline and accountability for spending are ignored. Gambling preys on the weakness of others.
Dude , you are stoned."Gambling preys on the weakness of others". WRONG!No one ever forces anyone into a poker game. And you can't take advantage of, or "prey" on the willing. Your opponant knows what's at stake and decides of his or her own free will to go ahead and play anyway.It's fully their CHOICE to do so.This is miles removed and can hardly be construed as "preying on the weak".



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#17 cemo76

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 10:48 PM

You guys are missing the POINT. All I said was that it is Wrong to Thank GOD for helping you win at POKER. Daniel stated he played better because of GOD ( generalization). I totally disagree with fact that God would aknowledge Daniels Poker status when there are kids starving, people dying and desease being fought. You should Thank God for your Good Fortunes, Health and FAmily but not for winning at Poker.The same goes for a soccer player when they score a GOAL. GOd helped me score the goal??Thats is ridiculous man! Also you all act like Beating someone at Poker is a regular JOb? Who are you kidding. IT is gambling at its deepest Core. I play Poker but Admit it is not an admirable thing. I choose to play just as others choose to play. Whether it is a profession, hobby or a great rush we all have our reasons. YOu don't deserve a Pulitser Prize or a library named after you for being a poker player. YOu just play cards man! PS. I totally believe in free democracy. CAnadian Style. First and foremost everyone must have the same education and medical care. The rest is all up in the air for grabs!!

#18 whale_hunter

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 10:57 PM

I am a Christian and was saved when I was 17.I am 30 now.I know I have fallen away from GOD ,and GOD's plan for my life.I am most assured that in Daniel's quiet alone moments he knows that playing poker for a living is wrong.I defend poker playing just like Daniel,but deep down I know it's sinful.I believe that anyone looking for DN to all of a sudden come out and admit he's sinning is bieng silly.I wouldn't have the courage to do that myself in his position.I agree with him about drinking alchohol however,it's even advised to give soemone in poor spirits a drink to make them feel better.

#19 whale_hunter

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Posted 02 February 2006 - 11:03 PM

I forgot to mention that I admire Daniel putting his walk with GOD out in the light, instead of hiding it under a bushel basket like most people.In this day and age believeing in GOD and expressing that belief, is anything but popular.

#20 Canada

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Posted 03 February 2006 - 02:00 AM

cemo76 said:

You guys are missing the POINT. All I said was that it is Wrong to Thank GOD for helping you win at POKER. Daniel stated he played better because of GOD ( generalization). I totally disagree with fact that God would aknowledge Daniels Poker status when there are kids starving, people dying and desease being fought. You should Thank God for your Good Fortunes, Health and FAmily but not for winning at Poker.The same goes for a soccer player when they score a GOAL. GOd helped me score the goal??Thats is ridiculous man! Also you all act like Beating someone at Poker is a regular JOb? Who are you kidding. IT is gambling at its deepest Core. I play Poker but Admit it is not an admirable thing. I choose to play just as others choose to play. Whether it is a profession, hobby or a great rush we all have our reasons. YOu don't deserve a Pulitser Prize or a library named after you for being a poker player. YOu just play cards man! PS. I totally believe in free democracy. CAnadian Style. First and foremost everyone must have the same education and medical care. The rest is all up in the air for grabs!!
No I think you are missing the point.It is fairly obvious from Daniels blog that he is not thanking God for helping him win at poker. He is thanking him for making him a more complete person.He is simply stating that by living right, which in his case involves 'spending time with his God' gives him inner peace and calm. From there he will tackle whatever he does better. It is this state of mind that allows him to focus and concentrate, not some miracle bestowed upon him because he chucks out a few hail Mary's and sacrifices a goat or two.I don't think for one second that he is implying that he has God looking over his shoulder whispering 'raise him, he's got nothing'.Serioulsy, looking at some of your posts it's obvious rational thinking is not your strong point, so in future it would be appreciated if you took a moment to think about what your saying. It would seem every time you hit the submit button, the world gets a little dumber.
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