Jump to content


Playing Position


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 theACE

theACE

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 88 posts
  • Location:Vancouver, B.C

Posted 10 December 2004 - 04:37 PM

I by no means consider myself an advanced player yet, but I'm fairly confident in my game, and I think one of the things most often overlooked in many beginners is using your postion at the table to your advantage. I'm curious to know from you all how you guys use your late position in regards to betting so as to pick up pots that you otherwise might have stayed out of.

#2

  • Guests

Posted 10 December 2004 - 05:10 PM

I only learned the true value of position when I started playing PLH. Any big bet hold'em game like NLH or PLH has position magnified.

#3 wrto4556

wrto4556

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 5,418 posts

Posted 11 December 2004 - 01:54 AM

Thats very true, youngblood. In limit if it is checked around to you, and you are in a late position, and you put in a bet...you get lots of calls. People automatically think you're bluffing and will call a single bet to find out. But, in PLH or NLH, it's a little tougher to call a pot size bet just because you think someone is bluffing.Bluffing and position are definately magnified in PLH and NLH.That doesn't mean it's not important in LH! I looove limit hold'em. I actually prefer it over PLH and NLH. Basically, I enjoy challenges...and I believe LH is alot harder than NLH or PLH. It's easier to protect your hand in the latter two. Limit keeps me on my toes. And playing limit hold'em I make most of my money in seats 6, 7, and 8 ( I think that's right...). Late position!
back for kramit

#4 foodbanker

foodbanker

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 86 posts
  • Location:seattle

Posted 11 December 2004 - 09:25 AM

Ok..this is just my opinion. I know allot of you guys out there are very adament about late position is great. I agree..late position is great in no-limit. In no-limit...position is everything. But in limit, I throw position out the window.My explanation: In limit games, I feel being first to act can be just as powerful as last. I rather be first or last...not in the middle. Because, there is a thing call the check raise. In limit games these days, it is very rarely checked on the flop all the way through. Someone is going to bet. IT's just the way these days. if I have ak and an aCe flops..well in late position I would raise anyone that bets. And if I'm in first i'lll check raise anyone that best. Either way its two bets.I think your question, is stealing when no one flops much of anything. That I agree. If the board pairs on the flop and everyone checks to you in last position, its almost a must for you to make a bet. Lets do the math.Let say if the board pairs and its checked to you and you bluff at it. Let say it happens 4 times. And you were successful 50% of the time. So that means twice you took down the pot on the flop.Lets also say that each time 4 people were in, and its a 20-40 game.ok, so each pot is 80 dollars, not counting you bet. you were successful twice. So you gained $160. Of course you lost twice also. So your net gain was $120.Your risk was $20 for 4 times. So the total risk was $80. In 4 late position bluffs, you risked $80 for a $120. I think the math says it all. If its a good bluffing flop and everyone checks to you. ..I think the math says..go for it. good bluffing flop when everyone checks to you...I say is a pair on board or a Ace or king(and make sure its a rainbow)

#5 FriscoKid

FriscoKid

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 6 posts
  • Interests:Nothing but Poker

Posted 11 December 2004 - 12:57 PM

Throw position out the window in a limit game? Wow. I dont agree. The thing with position is that it not only benefits your buyng and bluffing, but it also provides you with the opportunity of getting pots odds on otherwise mediocre hands.Lets say that you are on the button in a 10/20 game. First from BB raises to $20.If you were second from BB, would you call with 56s? Probably not.But if you are on the button and you see that everyone calls the raise, pot odds say that you would play almost anything.You may try to make the argument that BB has the best position for this type of hand, but he does not. The button will continue to have the final decision about staying in this large pot game.Furthermore, your example seems only to apply to early position when you have a hand worth check-raising with. It just doesnt add up for me, late position is always a benefit in any structure (imho).

#6 wrto4556

wrto4556

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 5,418 posts

Posted 11 December 2004 - 02:45 PM

What he said
back for kramit

#7 JaysonWeber

JaysonWeber

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 3,665 posts
  • Location:Green Bay
  • Interests:Poker, who woulda thought.

Posted 11 December 2004 - 06:22 PM

Well, I'm going to tell you Position matters in Limit! If you don't think it is... go from your normal 3-6 game down to a .5/1.00 game and Raise while on the button EVERYTIME!!! Daniel said to do this in one of his old articles.http://www.fullconta...es.php?id=00003---Doesn't talk about raising on the button, but a good read, similarhttp://www.fullconta...es.php?id=00005---This one talks about raising on the buttonBoth of these are good, I've done these types of things in my home games, If you lose your money you're learning a lesson. It's strange... I think I learned 3x as many things while playing like this, you get to see how people react to YOU, thats what I want at a table, and the best part about it is. They REMEMBER this, we had a guy play with one one game, he got busted out within the first 2 hours, this was on a day I was having fun for the first few hours, He played with us about 2 months later, and He sat down and looked at me. First words out of his mouth "Oh The Crazy Guy is playing again!?!?" Its not something that will affect your play for just ONE day it is your entire image, people remember this and your respect is altered. These are just observations and opinions on the matter, But I still think that Position is extremely important, to prove it, perhaps you should try things like this in a game lower than what you normally play.It is also more evident in B&M games, not as much in online play.
"Here are my rules: what can be done with one substance must never be done with another. No two materials are alike. No two sites on earth are alike. No two buildings have the same purpose. The purpose, the site, the material determine the shape. Nothing can be reasonable or beautiful unless its made by one central idea, and the idea sets every detail. A building is alive, like a man." - The Fountainhead.

#8

  • Guests

Posted 12 December 2004 - 12:59 AM

Wrot I have to say I think that limit is a breeze compared to PLH and NLH. Even though I don't advocate low-limit NLH games with a small buy-in, I think a large NLH game with maybe blinds of 10-15 would be very difficult. Big bet poker just puts more poker into the game in relation to the poeple you are playing and bluffing. In my opinion bluffing to novices is over rated because they think all poker is just bluffing. I do bluff but not too much unless I have a very passive table which rareley happens.Wrot what do you do in limit when you get raised when you got top pair and top kicker with a nothing board....you just call one more bet. If you get raised 5-10 times your original bet in PLH or NLH then what do you do? Thats where knowing your opponent is key. Im not saying you don't need to know your players at a limit game, but your not going to mull over a one bet raise of lets say $20. If you gett raised $300, now you might have to think about it for awhile, unless you got a dead read on a guy. Big bet poker has more thinking hands then limit, however limit does present its own sets of challenges that I will not discuss here.

#9 foodbanker

foodbanker

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 86 posts
  • Location:seattle

Posted 12 December 2004 - 05:18 AM

Ok..Position is very important in poker. Even in Limit hold em. I think my phrase of "Throw position out of the window in limit" maybe a little bit over the top. Position is important.I'm just saying that after you gain years of playing poker, pretty soon you get to a point where position doesn't bother you as much. I'm just saying I'm comfortable playin early as well as late. I just don't want to be in the middle.

#10 doublesuited

doublesuited

    Poker Forum Regular

  • Members
  • 113 posts
  • Location:Chicago

Posted 12 December 2004 - 04:56 PM

foodbanker said:

Ok..Position is very important in poker. Even in Limit hold em. I think my phrase of "Throw position out of the window in limit" maybe a little bit over the top.  Position is important.I'm just saying that after you gain years of playing poker, pretty soon you get to a point where position doesn't bother you as much.  I'm just saying I'm comfortable playin early as well as late. I just don't want to be in the middle.
even after years of playing, you realize just how important position is. You can play more hands in middle position than early and more in late than middle. Why? because you have less chance of being trapped in a pot. Drawing hands play better because you have a greater opportunity for a free card.Here is an example. Let's say you pick up AJ in early position. You decide to limp. Suddenly, there is a raise and a reraise behind you. You much your hand. You just lost a SB on a hand you had no chance to win. If you were in late position you would have mucked with no chance to win.I think the point you are trying to make is that position matters less is passive games. I completely agree with this. The more aggresive the game, the more hands you can play up front.

#11 foodbanker

foodbanker

    Poker Forum Newbie

  • Members
  • 86 posts
  • Location:seattle

Posted 13 December 2004 - 10:09 AM

The only serious advantage being late position for me are drawing hands. I believe if i make a set, 2 pair or top pair with good kicker...I can utilize whatever my position is accordingly.The biggest draw we know about is the flush draw. Being late position will allow you to check or bet if its checked to you. It gives you option to not throw anymore money into a pot on a draw and to know what kind of pot odds you are getting. In early position, if you call a bet on a draw, you may be reraised by a person next to you that flopped a big hand. Then its up to you to make your draw or you're just throwing money away. Definitely, the later position you are..the better for drawing hands. So it is very very important to just throw away your hand in early position if the pot is small. Especially if you have a flush draw with two undercards. Plus..someone maybe on a bigger flush draw. Position doesn't bother me much anymore in ring games because I've learned (the hard way) to throw away draws. In the long run, drawing hands will kill you.

#12 JFarrell20

JFarrell20

    Poker Forum Veteran

  • Members
  • 1,576 posts
  • Location:Houston

Posted 13 December 2004 - 11:08 AM

Most people say either "Position is important" or "It's not". I say, its importance is always changing.Position is impotant when you are short-stacked. Not so much when you are chipleader. (ie. Grey Raymer 2004 WSOP).Position is important with nominal hands (7-7...A-9, etc.). In an aggressive game you may want to just lay down 7-7 UTG. However if you are on the button and it hasn't been raised, well... .call it and flop that set!Position is important late in tourney as opposed to early when the blinds are so small. (However, I typically don't play looser in early blind stages, b/c its not like your advantage increases... but most people play much more hands early in an attempt to get off to a good start.)Try playing a whole tournament positionally once. It is a fun exercise. A little hard to lay down 10-10 UTG, lol. But you will help polish your game. A-7 UTG... lay it down, unless you feel nobody will raise it. Late position? Play those 2-5 of clubs! Play the 3-3! Again, try doing this for a whole tournament and I guarantee you'll play well, and learn a lot about your game. (You will also begin to see that other people play position horribly!!! This will soon become laughable to you, and you will know who is a novice player.)




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users