final table hand, thoughts? (no converter)

[chappy3 0]

Alright, i am sitting about tied for the chip lead with the villain, with about 55,000. The blinds are 750/1500. I raise UTG with K Q , to 3800. It is folded to the SB(villian), he calls along with the BB (she is about 38,000). Flop is Q 6 6 . Checked to me i bet 14,200, into a 11,000 pot (thought about an all in here, i believe this would have been the best action) SB goes all in, which leaves me with 2,000 chips, if i call. This guy had been a pretty good player, and i knew that he knew i didn't have a 6. I didn't put him on a 6, he wouldn't have called my raise with a 6 in his hand, the way he had been playing. On the flop here what is your play? Sorry for the rambling and no converter. Any thoughts?

[gobears 0]

Either AQ or the nut flush draw would be my guess. You bet more than the pot which should have priced out the flush draw but players fall in love with their flush draws.You still have 40K if you fold. I think a long time and fold.

[copernicus 0]

Is this a full table or close to it?If so, fold preflop. KQ is trap hand OOP.

[chappy3 0]

Is this a full table or close to it?If so, fold preflop. KQ is trap hand OOP.

I know, but this table was sqeaky tight. 9 handed.

[chappy3 0]

i am going to wait and see if i get anymore responses. Then i will tell the rest of the hand. Probably not hard to figure it out.... :roll:

[copernicus 0]

Is this a full table or close to it?If so, fold preflop. KQ is trap hand OOP.

I know, but this table was sqeaky tight. 9 handed.

If its that tight a table then isnt your flop bet too big? What can call you that doesnt have you beaten, and also would have called an UTG raise preflop?

[chappy3 0]

Is this a full table or close to it?If so, fold preflop. KQ is trap hand OOP.

I know, but this table was sqeaky tight. 9 handed.

If its that tight a table then isnt your flop bet too big? What can call you that doesnt have you beaten, and also would have called an UTG raise preflop?

Yeah, the flop bet might have been to big. What i wanted to show, was that i couldn't be pushed off my hand and that i was showing strength. Guess it didn't work that way. I think a PP would have called my preflop raise, i put him on something like 77 or a small PP. Anyway, he went all in on a check, reraise all in. I thought forever and called thinking i was ahead. He had 55 and caught a 5 on the river. Just really needed to vent a little.I guess i should have 1. folded preflop 2. gone all in on the flop or 3. fold and still have 37k to fight with, but i wanted to go for the win.

[copernicus 0]

If hes calling an UTG raise with 55, it isnt that tight a table!I dont think all in on the flop is any better than your bet. If anything a standard continuation bet would make more sense. then you arent pot committed if you get played back at.

[chappy3 0]

If hes calling an UTG raise with 55, it isnt that tight a table!I dont think all in on the flop is any better than your bet. If anything a standard continuation bet would make more sense. then you arent pot committed if you get played back at.

I am not saying every person sitting at the table was a rock, i am just saying in general it was tight, you know people folding all around to the button sometimes 2-3 hands in a row, someone making a raise and everyone folding...like that. I began the hand thinking that if i raise there i probably win the hand outright, because i had a pretty tight table image. I don't blame his call preflop either, it was only %5 of his stack. He's trying to flop a set and take my whole stack. His flop play i think is bad, but he is still putting me to the test since he was in the SB and could have got lucky with a 6. Do you think he calls if i go all in after his check?Anyways, i SHOULD have just folded preflop. Thats the play w/ KQ off in first position. :evil:

[chappy3 0]

Who is that picture of copernicus?oh yeah and if GreenPP from party poker reads this...i hate u :wink:

[copernicus 0]

I don't blame his call preflop either' date=' it was only %5 of his stack. [b'] He's trying to flop a set and take my whole stack[/b]. His flop play i think is bad, but he is still putting me to the test since he was in the SB and could have got lucky with a 6. Do you think he calls if i go all in after his check?:

If he was calling to flop a set he wouldve folded! His preflop play was bad, his flop play was bad. I think he was bad enough to call a push if he could call that overbet.

[chappy3 0]

I don't blame his call preflop either' date=' it was only %5 of his stack. [b'] He's trying to flop a set and take my whole stack[/b]. His flop play i think is bad, but he is still putting me to the test since he was in the SB and could have got lucky with a 6. Do you think he calls if i go all in after his check?:

If he was calling to flop a set he wouldve folded! His preflop play was bad, his flop play was bad. I think he was bad enough to call a push if he could call that overbet.

I'd like to bump this, want some other opinions. Don't think you get tournament poker :wink:

[gobears 0]

Who is that picture of copernicus?

The beautiful Jennifer Connelly

[copernicus 0]

I don't blame his call preflop either' date=' it was only %5 of his stack. [b'] He's trying to flop a set and take my whole stack[/b]. His flop play i think is bad, but he is still putting me to the test since he was in the SB and could have got lucky with a 6. Do you think he calls if i go all in after his check?:

If he was calling to flop a set he wouldve folded! His preflop play was bad, his flop play was bad. I think he was bad enough to call a push if he could call that overbet.

I'd like to bump this, want some other opinions. Don't think you get tournament poker :wink:

lol, ok.

[chappy3 0]

The reason i say that is because of your thoughts about his preflop play. Do you think it is "bad poker" or -EV to call %5 of your stack to try and bust another player, late in a MTT?

[Wingmaster05 0]

You gave him the chance to call with a six, IMO, with the low bet preflop. If he/she is a good player, just a call of the overbet is obviously fishy, so they either have queens, flush draw or the six. Why the over bet? Nothing plays unless it has you (baring QJ or the flush draw, but the flush draw has plenty of outs)

[Crazy Cypriot 0]

Ok here are my thoughts:Firstly, i normally dont suggest raising with KQ in that spot unless you have a monster stack, a very tight image, or the table is really rocky. Moving on from there, usually in a three handed pot , u re more ready to muck your hand than in a HU pot. I dont really like the overbet on the flop, but i understand it cos of the 3-way pot and the flush draw on board. However, u dont want to build a huge pot with the specific hand. Therefore, i` d prefer a half pot bet.Now after the check raise in the specific instance on the pot, you try to specify the range of hads you are up against. Here is my list taking into consideration he is a good player!AQ, AA, Ax flush draw, 6x , KK, QQ, JJ-99Against this range of hand, u re usally a big dog, only a very small favourite over the flush draw, and a big favourite over the underpair. In the specific situation, with your big raise on flop, well its just depends on your playing style.If your an aggresive player that outperforms with a big stack, or your in an aggressive mood go ahead and make a gambling call.If you can make the lay down and wait for a better spot, which will probably arise , you have a good enough stack to do so.My personal opinion, and my decision from the comfortable seat i am now, would be to fold i guess , but IF AND ONLY IF, i will feel good for my decision and that would not influence my game. Many times we say we are ok with a decision but in fact we are not. If you should make this lay down, then you should also avoid a coinflip in the next hand, or as long as your stack lets you to

[copernicus 0]

The reason i say that is because of your thoughts about his preflop play. Do you think it is "bad poker" or -EV to call %5 of your stack to try and bust another player, late in a MTT?

When the other chip leader is still in the hand and the player you are trying to bust has 3/4 of your stack and you are OOP? Yes, I know its -EV.

[chappy3 0]

The reason i say that is because of your thoughts about his preflop play. Do you think it is "bad poker" or -EV to call %5 of your stack to try and bust another player, late in a MTT?

When the other chip leader is still in the hand and the player you are trying to bust has 3/4 of your stack and you are OOP? Yes, I know its -EV.

Alright, whatever. We can agree to disagree, i don't think his preflop play was bad. To me position doesn't matter, if you were trying to flop a set.

[Hobbes 1]

Don't think you get tournament poker :wink:

This amuses me. And Coper, this needs to be your new avatar...

The beautiful Jennifer Connelly

Just saying...

[chappy3 0]

Ok here are my thoughts:Firstly, i normally dont suggest raising with KQ in that spot unless you have a monster stack, a very tight image, or the table is really rocky. Moving on from there, usually in a three handed pot , u re more ready to muck your hand than in a HU pot. I dont really like the overbet on the flop, but i understand it cos of the 3-way pot and the flush draw on board. However, u dont want to build a huge pot with the specific hand. Therefore, i` d prefer a half pot bet.Now after the check raise in the specific instance on the pot, you try to specify the range of hads you are up against. Here is my list taking into consideration he is a good player!AQ, AA, Ax flush draw, 6x , KK, QQ, JJ-99Against this range of hand, u re usally a big dog, only a very small favourite over the flush draw, and a big favourite over the underpair. In the specific situation, with your big raise on flop, well its just depends on your playing style.If your an aggresive player that outperforms with a big stack, or your in an aggressive mood go ahead and make a gambling call.If you can make the lay down and wait for a better spot, which will probably arise , you have a good enough stack to do so.My personal opinion, and my decision from the comfortable seat i am now, would be to fold i guess , but IF AND ONLY IF, i will feel good for my decision and that would not influence my game. Many times we say we are ok with a decision but in fact we are not. If you should make this lay down, then you should also avoid a coinflip in the next hand, or as long as your stack lets you to

I appreciate your imput. I'll try to give you some of my thinking from the hand.1. Yes i SHOULD have just folded that is the play to make there, but i did have a tight table image and the table was pretty tight. I was about %80 sure i would pick up the blinds here.2. Like i said earlier, i wanted to show strength. I think that a half pot bet would show weakness and beg for a reraise.3. The hand that i was most worried about was AQ or A6 suited. That is really it. AA, KK i think he reraises preflop. AQ i think he leads out on the flop, and my read on him was that he would not have called preflop with something like 56 or 67 suited. I put him on some kind of pocket pair like 77.4. The only reason i make the call there is because of my read on him. I just thought, he knew i was a tight player and that i definitely didn't have a 6. So with that, even with AA or KK it isn't an easy call. The betting just didn't make since to me. I really thought i was ahead of him and he didn't have a 6, aa, kk, or aq. After i took the action of raising with that junk hand, i should have just layed it down and tried to find a spot where i "knew" i was a bigger favorite. I still had 22+ BB, with 36K. Oh well live and learn.

[copernicus 0]

The reason i say that is because of your thoughts about his preflop play. Do you think it is "bad poker" or -EV to call %5 of your stack to try and bust another player, late in a MTT?

When the other chip leader is still in the hand and the player you are trying to bust has 3/4 of your stack and you are OOP? Yes, I know its -EV.

Alright, whatever. We can agree to disagree, i don't think his preflop play was bad. To me position doesn't matter, if you were trying to flop a set.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that also. Position affects your ability to realize your implied odds when you do hit the set. Its much easier to read and react in position to determine bet sizes and/or slow play. Its not as important as it is to TP for example, but still very valuable.

[chappy3 0]

The reason i say that is because of your thoughts about his preflop play. Do you think it is "bad poker" or -EV to call %5 of your stack to try and bust another player, late in a MTT?

When the other chip leader is still in the hand and the player you are trying to bust has 3/4 of your stack and you are OOP? Yes, I know its -EV.

Alright, whatever. We can agree to disagree, i don't think his preflop play was bad. To me position doesn't matter, if you were trying to flop a set.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that also. Position affects your ability to realize your implied odds when you do hit the set. Its much easier to read and react in position to determine bet sizes and/or slow play. Its not as important as it is to TP for example, but still very valuable.

Can you explain this anymore?And another question, in MTT like this...do you never limp in with a small pocket pair (from various positions, including out of position) and if it gets raised smooth call to see if you can hit a set?On to the next, question...and if you do hit your set, do you lead out or do you check to the raiser? I realize all this could be answered with "it depends". If you don't mind, give a few examples of why you lead out or why you check.

[blakheart 3]

Ok so I read all the responses first, but the advice is solid. 1. With your chip stack KQ off UTG is not a hand to play, because2. There is no reasonable way to assume you are ahead after the flop3. the overbet at the pot was too much4. If I had been faced with your postflop decision, you have to lay it down. You can not count on the other player to be so bad as to make that move with a small pp. I would have put him on a Q, probably an AQ. That is the only hand good enough to consider a check raise all in with. If he had that it is the type of hand that wants to end the play before the turn.Limping with PP is a very situational thing. If I am in late position and ther are many players already in the pot, I modify my hand requirements a lot. At a full table, if 5 people limp in ahead of me, I may fold KQ off but call with 55, or even 78 off. The reason is that the implied odds of those hands is much greater. KQ of is seldom going to win me a big pot but will cause me to hang in with 2nd or 3rd best hand. 78 misses, and I fold without a 2nd thought.

[chappy3 0]

Yeah after thinking about it for a day, i am just pissed off at myself for having such a donkarific moment :roll: . I f.cking had that table and should have just folded and went on to win. I played the hand so awful, but i think i made a great call on the flop going with my read and just getting extremely unlucky. Oh well, i can rest assure that i won't make that donkey mistake again. Thanks for the input, and copernicus still looking forward to your response on those questions.