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#21 screech

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 02:44 PM

Abbaddabba said:

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I don't know how dated this info is - I read it in Poker Essays II - but it says that a good player can make just as much at 15/30 than at 20/40, and assume less risk. This is because bad players fail to adjust to the 2/3 blind structure properly, and thus go broke more quickly.
You mean in the sense that they play too tight out of the small blind?I cant imagine it accounting for that much of a difference...
Maybe not.I would guess that it provide a small increase for your winrate though. Bad players who can't adjust properly will be giving even more up. Of course there are probably some players whose poor blind strategy works better with this structure.Come to think of it, I'm going to read the article again. Didn't make too much sense the first time around.

#22 justblaze

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 02:51 PM

screech said:

Abbaddabba said:

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I don't know how dated this info is - I read it in Poker Essays II - but it says that a good player can make just as much at 15/30 than at 20/40, and assume less risk. This is because bad players fail to adjust to the 2/3 blind structure properly, and thus go broke more quickly.
You mean in the sense that they play too tight out of the small blind?I cant imagine it accounting for that much of a difference...
Maybe not.I would guess that it provide a small increase for your winrate though. Bad players who can't adjust properly will be giving even more up. Of course there are probably some players whose poor blind strategy works better with this structure.Come to think of it, I'm going to read the article again. Didn't make too much sense the first time around.
it would have to do with not defending the SB often enough to raises, but i doubt thats enough to overcome a 33% big bet increase.

#23 screech

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 02:55 PM

just reread the article. Mason doesn't go into detail as to why the games are better, but he says the blind structure generates more action, and the bad palyers can't play their blinds as well. Same with 30/60 and 40/80 apparently.

#24 Abbaddabba

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 02:56 PM

Yeah, but how much are they giving up?You pay 2/3rds of a small bet instead of 1.5/3 of a small bet as you would generally expect. The difference is .5/3 of a small bet, or 1/6th. That is 1/12th of a big bet. Because you play 10 hands in a full ring, that accounts for 1/120th of a big bet for an average hand.When you look at that figure off the bat, it seems huge.That's .83BB/100!But that's nowhere near what you're actually giving up.Because the hands that you do opt to play, you're going to be winning marginally larger pots. And of course you will always adapt at least in some way or another. People will be rightfully far more inclined to complete the SB without a raise, and at least somewhat more inclined to defend against raises; even if they arent defending quite as much as they should.

#25 screech

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 03:19 PM

Abbaddabba,While Mason doesn't go into the reasons for his statement, I think the basic idea is that poor players will either be too tight in the sb, or more likely, too loose.Also, when the bad players figure out they should be calling with more hands pf due to the blind structure, this may be detrimental to them. Because they end up playing more weak hands OOP, they will end up losing more money. They will end up chasing weak hands more often incorrectly, and will overall be involved in more pots which will cost them more over the long run.It's hard to quantify exactly how much of a difference this makes though. I'm interested to see if anyone has pt stats that show something similar.

#26 Abbaddabba

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 03:24 PM

Do you have a link to the article?It seems like he's assuming a lot.

#27 screech

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 03:37 PM

Abbaddabba said:

Do  you have a link to the article?It seems like he's assuming a lot.
It's an article in his poker essays 2 book. I don't have a scanner and they have copyrighting rights.Some of the info seems dated, and Mason does assume. All in all, it's still a good book IMO.

#28 zimmer4141

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 04:29 PM

I think the 2/3 blind structure does make a difference, because people are more likely to defend with worse hands. Bad players playing marginal hands out of position means they will likely lose more money from the SB.Well, I logged a session in the afternoon, got in 223 hands, and lost about 4.6BBs. Wasn't a horrible outcome, and the games played much like 5/10 and 10/20.I wouldn't be making the move if I didn't have the bankroll, but, if I broke even for 6k hands, I would still be winning at over 2BB/100. I really see no reason to stay at 10/20 and simply grind out more bets when I could move up and be making more money, and be more likely to improve my game.
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#29 KDawgCometh

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 05:20 PM

Actuary said:

Kdawg gave advice in that one thread about palyeres moving up too quickly.  Saying 10k hands even ,is not enough to know your true wr.  Not that I agree/disagree but if Keith is reading this, maybe he can chime in with the counter-arguments to moving up.I fall into the safe category, but that's due to my conservative nature, not because I think it's best.  $3200 + and playing 2/4.... BR earned thru winning, not bonus's or deposits (except $300)
I just read this. I had told Zim that he should probably jump down to 5/10 6 and play there for like 10K hands(which honestly is like a week and a half) and then move up to 10/20 6. Getting used to the short handed game is paramount for getting yourself ready for 15/30 and 20/40 and above. Not only that, but 10/20 6 max on party is notoriously soft. Something that Zim needs to keep in mind is that a 1.5 BB/100 winrate over a lot of hands at is a normal winrate and if you are beating it for 2BB/100+ then you are killing the game big time. This was something that I had talked about with Chris(wrto) as he was talking about his winrate to me at those levels and was upset. I know a bunch of winning 2p2ers who are around that rate, and if people try to tell u differently, then they are either lying, or haven't played enough hands
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#30 screech

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 05:35 PM

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Not only that, but 10/20 6 max on party is notoriously soft.
How does it compare to 5/10 6 max on party?I'm a bit hesitant to move up after following some of the posts from the better MHUSH players. They do a lot of shit I don't even consider. I guess those players are few and far between though?I was thinking about waiting until I have 1000BB's to move up since if I start off on a downswing I won't be bothered as much, but now I'm thinking 750 should do the trick. Any suggestions?

#31 KDawgCometh

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 06:47 PM

screech said:

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Not only that, but 10/20 6 max on party is notoriously soft.
How does it compare to 5/10 6 max on party?I'm a bit hesitant to move up after following some of the posts from the better MHUSH players. They do a lot of censored I don't even consider. I guess those players are few and far between though?I was thinking about waiting until I have 1000BB's to move up since if I start off on a downswing I won't be bothered as much, but now I'm thinking 750 should do the trick. Any suggestions?
my suggestion is start datamining the crap out of 10/20 6. Move up when u feel comfortable and start reading MHUSH religiously. You will come across more tricky players there and not every lag is the same. I've talked to several 2p2ers taht play there all the time, and that is what they've told me. One thing you should do is move some money onto AP and get used to better play there(but beware, there are a lot of 2p2ers running around there these days) at lower limits. A friend of mine told me that if you can beat the AP 5/10 then you can beat the stars 30/60(that was Kurosh who told me that)
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#32 zimmer4141

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 06:51 PM

Screech, I don't think you need that much even for 6 max. I would say for 6 max, 600BBs should be plenty to start. I doubt you will have a downswing of over 300 at your worst point. And trust me, if I can beat 5/10 and up, I think you should be able to.
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#33 KDawgCometh

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:02 PM

zim, I disagree. THe key to being able to beat 10/20 6 is having a big enough roll to withstand multiple thousand dollar swings, I've been told this by someone who is now playing 20/40 and 30/60 on party and was playing 10/20 6 as his main game not that long ago. Having 300 BBs is all well and good, but you are going to be feeling the pressure when you have a 13K roll and have dropped 5K in a matter of days. THese things are very possible and do happen even to very good players at that level. I don't know how much 6 max that u have played, but the swings at 6 max are bigger then those at full, so u need a bigger roll to handle those swings
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#34 screech

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:06 PM

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my suggestion is start datamining the crap out of 10/20 6. Move up when u feel comfortable and start reading MHUSH religiously. You will come across more tricky players there and not every lag is the same. I've talked to several 2p2ers taht play there all the time, and that is what they've told me. One thing you should do is move some money onto AP and get used to better play there(but beware, there are a lot of 2p2ers running around there these days) at lower limits. A friend of mine told me that if you can beat the AP 5/10 then you can beat the stars 30/60(that was Kurosh who told me that)
Thanks for the help Keith. I read MHUSH more than any other forum. It seems to have the most consitent good advice.I've seen a few different level lags at 5/10, but not many. Guys with 50/20/2 stats who play very well postflop are a pain in the ass. It takes some getting used to when a guy with similar stats just capped every street with TPNK.Is absolute really that tough, or is stars just soft?

#35 zimmer4141

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:08 PM

KDawgCometh said:

zim, I disagree. THe key to being able to beat 10/20 6 is having a big enough roll to withstand multiple thousand dollar swings, I've been told this by someone who is now playing 20/40 and 30/60 on party and was playing 10/20 6 as his main game not that long ago. Having 300 BBs is all well and good, but you are going to be feeling the pressure when you have a 13K roll and have dropped 5K in a matter of days. THese things are very possible and do happen even to very good players at that level. I don't know how much 6 max that u have played, but the swings at 6 max are bigger then those at full, so u need a bigger roll to handle those swings
Before I moved up from 5/10 to 10/20, I played 5/10 6 max for around 2.5k hands to get more experience with blind battles, and it really helped. I guess I like full table more because at this point, I can basically just play good hands, and put myself in better situations. I do have experience with 6-max, but I'm gonna stick with full table right now, unless I find myself struggling and feel I need to drop down and play some 10/20 6 max.
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#36 screech

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:16 PM

Zimmer4141 said:

Screech, I don't think you need that much even for 6 max. I would say for 6 max, 600BBs should be plenty to start. I doubt you will have a downswing of over 300 at your worst point. And trust me, if I can beat 5/10 and up, I think you should be able to.
Maybe. I'm pretty risk adverse though, and would feel much more comfortable playing 10/20 6 with a large br. Part of the reason is I don't want to get deflated if I start off on a downswing.I haven't had a -200BB downswing since I started playing six-max, but I have had some pretty sick swings in the span of a few hours. I've had multiple -70BB downswing sessions, and a few sessions where I've been up 40BB in the first half hour, only to quit a half hour later with a 40BB loss. If I started out 10/20 with one of these swings, I would feel like shit and probably move back down on a short br.

#37 zimmer4141

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:19 PM

screech said:

Zimmer4141 said:

Screech, I don't think you need that much even for 6 max. I would say for 6 max, 600BBs should be plenty to start. I doubt you will have a downswing of over 300 at your worst point. And trust me, if I can beat 5/10 and up, I think you should be able to.
Maybe. I'm pretty risk adverse though, and would feel much more comfortable playing 10/20 6 with a large br. Part of the reason is I don't want to get deflated if I start off on a downswing.I haven't had a -200BB downswing since I started playing six-max, but I have had some pretty sick swings in the span of a few hours. I've had multiple -70BB downswing sessions, and a few sessions where I've been up 40BB in the first half hour, only to quit a half hour later with a 40BB loss. If I started out 10/20 with one of these swings, I would feel like censored and probably move back down.
I guess that's the reason to have that large of a bankroll. However, the only person who can judge when you're ready is yourself. If you don't feel comfortable with a 600BB bankroll, then don't move up at that time. Whenever you feel you have a large enough bankroll to withstand the swings, and you have the skill to be a winner at 10/20 6 max, then you should move up.
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#38 screech

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:29 PM

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Whenever you feel you have a large enough bankroll to withstand the swings, and you have the skill to be a winner at 10/20 6 max, then you should move up.
Variance just makes me sick. If I ended up losing 1/4 of my bankroll when I first move up, I'd start questioning my skill, lose all confidence, start thinking about the money, and probably end up losing more money. With a comfortable br, I don't really care about the money at all. If I start off losing, I get more concerned about my BB/100. Could I have my balls back now please?

#39 zimmer4141

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:37 PM

screech said:

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Whenever you feel you have a large enough bankroll to withstand the swings, and you have the skill to be a winner at 10/20 6 max, then you should move up.
Variance just makes me sick. If I ended up losing 1/4 of my bankroll when I first move up, I'd start questioning my skill, lose all confidence, start thinking about the money, and probably end up losing more money. With a comfortable br, I don't really care about the money at all. If I start off losing, I get more concerned about my BB/100. Could I have my balls back now please?
You have to get them out of the clutches of PartyPoker. Once PartyPoker gives your balls back, you can move up to 10/20 6 max.
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#40 Actuary

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Posted 16 January 2006 - 07:42 PM

[quote="screech"][quote]Could I have my balls back now please?[/quote] :club: Are you guys able to psycologically say: This is not really my money. This is my Poker Seed Money which I use to make money, some which I can spend (maybe) and the rest I plow back in to make a bigger seed?Or is it REAL MONEY to you and losing x BB is losing money..not "variance" that will be ok.I'm still in part, at least, attached to the money...but gradually as I get more confident, I *know* any losses are temporary.




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