pokerkid 0 Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cxPreflop: Hero is MP3 with J:diamond:, J:club:. UTG raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.Flop: (10.50 SB) 4:heart:, 3:heart:, K:diamond: (3 players)UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.Turn: (8.25 BB) 7:club: (3 players)UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero...? Link to post Share on other sites
ahosang 0 Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 I'm no LHE expert, but want to learn this game. I'll be interested what the better players think you should do.With the checks on the flop + the C/r, I think one has a flush draw, hence the turn checks. Maybe one has a weak K?I think you should bet here rather than take the free card. Link to post Share on other sites
nrs02004 0 Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 any read on UTG?His flop + preflop play seems pretty standard for KQ (maybe AK) possibly KJ suited if he's rather aggressive, or qq (maybe) jj 1010 99 88 (If he plays it like I would). The turn is strange... but I don't think you can give out a free card here, any ace or heart is bad news, and I really wouldn't like to see a 5 or 6 either. I would tenatively say bet/fold? The bet protects your hand but it's an easy fold if c/r.Did he have 77 and decide to check his set? or some other low pocket pair and shutdown after no1 folded the flop? Link to post Share on other sites
screech 0 Posted January 15, 2006 Share Posted January 15, 2006 This could easily be QQ-99.The problem is the other player. You can bet now, and hope to see a free sd, or check, with the intention of calling a river bet UI. I think that's the best option. You may induce a bluff from a weaker hand. I'd be cautious about overcalling though. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerkid 0 Posted January 15, 2006 Author Share Posted January 15, 2006 I'll post replies after more people have a chance to respond, but villian's play made more sense when I saw his hand. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerkid 0 Posted January 16, 2006 Author Share Posted January 16, 2006 Actuary, it's ur last chance to take a shot at this one before i post results. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Actuary, it's ur last chance to take a shot at this one before i post results.hold on Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 oh, yeah, I skipped this one.it's a clear b/f on flop.If you had J , it would be closer*** read replies ****uh.... hmmm..... I'm learning nothing if this aint a fold.Since I win a lot now, I'll assume I am learning and this is a fold on the flop Link to post Share on other sites
dms26 3 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Fold to the flop raise, you might be drawing to 1 out.Since you didn't, check the turn. I probably call one bet on a non-heart river. I might fold to an ace on river as well. Link to post Share on other sites
ahosang 0 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 oh, yeah, I skipped this one.it's a clear b/f on flop.If you had J , it would be closer*** read replies ****uh.... hmmm..... I'm learning nothing if this aint a fold.Since I win a lot now, I'll assume I am learning and this is a fold on the flopWhat does he do on the turn?And why did you think the leader is checking? Sorry for the dumb questions. My copy of SSHE isn't here yet.... Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 What does he do on the turn?And why did you think the leader is checking? Sorry for the dumb questions. My copy of SSHE isn't here yet....I'd go with Screech on the turn, he's smart.But, again, I never make it to the turn and I'm not sure Screech does Link to post Share on other sites
screech 0 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 What does he do on the turn?And why did you think the leader is checking? Sorry for the dumb questions. My copy of SSHE isn't here yet....I'd go with Screech on the turn, he's smart.But, again, I never make it to the turn and I'm not sure Screech doesActuary,the reason that we call the flop is 2 fold:1) we may have the best hand2) we may outdrawGranted, the chance of 1) is somewhat low. I'd guess around 15 - 20%. Also, we aren't getting quite the odds to draw ot 2). With the flush draw out, and a player calling 2 cold behind us, we aren't really getting quite the odds we need on the flop. I'd say we need about 25:1 to call here profitably.Anyway, these 2 things together makes the flop a call IMO. I've also changed my POV about the turn. I think this is an easy bet. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 NO NO NO NO NOwhy is this a fold sometimes and not others!damnit..we are so confusing!we have no draw! we have 2 outs!if there was no turn posted, this is an easy b/f.gimminy Christmas, quit trying to win every pot. Link to post Share on other sites
screech 0 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Actuary,Look at the size of the pot, think of villians range. It's too early to give up just yet. Link to post Share on other sites
screech 0 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Actuary,Look at the size of the pot, think of villians range. It's too early to give up just yet. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Actuary,Look at the size of the pot, think of villians range. Â It's too early to give up just yet.look at the K.look at the fact he raised UTGlook at the fact we don't make much more when we are aheadlook at his c/r, a move to fold weak draws or stronbg draws (incorrectly)when do you give up?HU, I would play on. Link to post Share on other sites
screech 0 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Maybe it's the 6-max in me that's telling me not to give up.AK - 12 combosKQ - 12 combosAA-QQ/Kx - 6 combos (discounted for unlikelyhood)JJ - We'll ignoreTT-88 - 6 combos (discounted because these hands won't play this way, even though they should).Accoriding to this model, we are ahead of the pf raiser here approximately 1/6 of the time. I actually think it's a bit more htan that, because I feel I discounted the TT-88 combos a bit too much.If we are ahead of UTG, we will almost always beat him by showdown. The problem is that UTG+1 could have a wide range of hands. Some of which have us beat, others which are drawing slim, and others that have a strong draw against us. So our overall equity is not that great.If UTG will check this turn every time he has a weaker hand, than we should definetly continue. But if he usually follows through with a bet, then calling becomes expensive, because we will now have to fold and it really doesn't matter how often we are ahead, because by folding the turn, we are effectively behind to even his weaker hands.Yeah. You win. Too much has to go right here. HU easy call.If the J was the J , easy call.If we could predict the future, easy call. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 Yeah. Â You win. Â Too much has to go right here. Â just before you edit it! Link to post Share on other sites
ahosang 0 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 <sigh>This is why I don't really want to start playing this dark, shadowy game.You're saying that we should have folded the flop, but if we called(misclick) and since they both checked the turn, we now bet??Or not?? Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted January 16, 2006 Share Posted January 16, 2006 <sigh>This is why I don't really want to start playing this dark, shadowy game.You're saying that we should have folded the flop, but if we called(misclick) and since they both checked the turn, we now bet??Or not??Screech already said YES!it was in the post somewhere before he said I was right!(Screech is awesome poker player..so I can act a fool for this one time!) Link to post Share on other sites
pokerkid 0 Posted January 17, 2006 Author Share Posted January 17, 2006 Screech was correct initally (not saying my play was correct).Villian had 99, and i think the villian that was calling had a FD (i'm not sure if if i ever saw his hand). I checked the turn (if there weren't two hearts I think this check would be correct). River checked to me. I bet, at least one call, and take it down.Results oriented thinking would say I am correct. In reality, folding the flop is good here. Link to post Share on other sites
Actuary 3 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 might be best to post this hand in parts next time..the turn action can bias the flop analysis Link to post Share on other sites
screech 0 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 <sigh>This is why I don't really want to start playing this dark, shadowy game.You're saying that we should have folded the flop, but if we called(misclick) and since they both checked the turn, we now bet??Or not??****.I had a long response written out, but my internet shut down and I lost it. Here's the short and sweet version:One possible hand range for villians is TT-88 and and flush draw respectively. On the flop however, the chance of villians having exactly these hands from their whole range is relatively small (not high enough to call a bet). However, if we misclick and call the flop, their turn checks give us a staggering amount of new info. It makes the probability that they have precisely TT-88 and a flush draw much higher. Also, the chances that the flush draw come in are now cut in half, so our equity has skyrocketed from somehting like 5% on the flop, to somewhere between 70-80%. We now must bet because of our significant edge. The flush draw will call now, and our other opponent with a likley TT-88 is likely to call a bet on each street with only 2 outs. Link to post Share on other sites
pokerkid 0 Posted January 17, 2006 Author Share Posted January 17, 2006 If there is no FD, as played on the flop, who bets the turn?I feel like i'm walking into a c/r here waayyy too often. Link to post Share on other sites
CoranMoran 0 Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 My thoughts:The bluff check-raise is not uncommon at this level.UTG realizes that he has minimal fold equity by leading the flop.And he may even think he currently has the best hand.I often call this raise to see what happens on the next street.If he reveals his hand by checking the turn, this tells me that I am very likely ahead.And in such a situation, betting out seems like a must.In this particular hand, however, there is a 2nd opponent. And this guy worries me.Conclusion:With certain reads, I often call this flop to see what happens on the turn.When the turn becomes passive, I jump all over this with a bet.--cm Link to post Share on other sites
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