15 replies to this topic

[LAPoker]

Yesterday in the super sattelite for the LA Poker Classic Lou Diamond Phillips decides to show up and shoot his movie during the tournement. So they use all of us as extras, interupt the game, and don't even bring so much as a pizza much less add something to the pot (besides lou's buy in). I think this just goes along with the WPT making millions off the TV show and still taking $25,000 out of the pot to pay for the championship buyin. I just wonder how long the players will continue to get used like this? Now for players like Daniel they do get something back from all of this like the big dollar televised free roles, endorcements, etc. but the rest of the field is really getting screwed.

[ddudley]

I hear ya brother. The players need a stronger players association to protect our rights. Time to do something about it?http://foruspa.org/http://www.wppa.info/cp/home.aspx

[Socrates]

I'm gonna have to disagree on this one. If it were not for the WPT and ESPN coverage, do you think all of the players would be selling as many books as they do, starting as many poker schools as they have, started as many websites and on-line poker sites, these guys have got it pretty good with the deals those companies give them. They rarely pay for entry fees and they get paid to play on their sites, the fish bring in loads of money therefore increasing the paid spots and the overall payout? And side games, if you don't think these guys are emptying the pockets of some fat cats and even some smaller fish, you've been totally missing the boat. Personally, I can't think of a better situation for them.In response to the rest of the field getting screwed. I guess they better learn to be better players and then they can reap the rewards.

[bigcoled]

Poker Players are exactly like Professional athletes. These athletes work most their life to perfect their skills at their game. Professional athletes are paid so much, because of the butts they put in the seats, their name recognition, their effect on apparell sales, their effect on TV ratings, the team in essence pays to own all that the player is, as far as when the player is representing the team. The player then can go out and get other endorsements and ads to make additional money, and wear whatever brands are willing to pay for the player to wear their clothes and supply the player with clothes.For poker players it is a very similar situation, but the player simply isn't getting paid. The players are gathering name recognition in idolistic forms, they are now bringing the spectators, people don't want to see just anyone play just for the sake of watching people play anymore, they want to see the greatest players in the world, whose names the public now recognizes. When the game was first becoming popular it was the game selling itself, that is no longer true.The players should be getting their cut from whatever clothing manufacurers they are represnting, companies should be allowed to form teams of players whom they sponsor. The players are in the position and have the right to demand money, as money is being made off their name and from their presence. :twisted:

[Ed]

Lou Diamond Phillips is still alive? Seriously?He's like the Troy McClure of the real world.

[ddudley]

Socrates said:

I'm gonna have to disagree on this one. If it were not for the WPT and ESPN coverage, do you think all of the players would be selling as many books as they do, starting as many poker schools as they have, started as many websites and on-line poker sites, these guys have got it pretty good with the deals those companies give them. They rarely pay for entry fees and they get paid to play on their sites, the fish bring in loads of money therefore increasing the paid spots and the overall payout? And side games, if you don't think these guys are emptying the pockets of some fat cats and even some smaller fish, you've been totally missing the boat. Personally, I can't think of a better situation for them.In response to the rest of the field getting screwed. I guess they better learn to be better players and then they can reap the rewards.

I guess you've never seen a TV broadcast where the logo's on player's shirts and hats are blurred or blacked out. What if NBC blurred out all the ads in a NACAR race? Budweiser certainly wouldn't pay the big bucks to have their ads on a car if the people watching on TV can't see it. It's the same thing for the players. We can't get the big bucks from endorsments when the broadcasters are blurring out our logo shirts or even making us change shirts or hats before we play. That's money the broadcasters are stealing directly from the players. You don't see this in golf, NASCAR, fishing, tennis or any other sport, just poker. It's got to change.

[ddudley]

bigcoled said:

Poker Players are exactly like Professional athletes. These athletes work most their life to perfect their skills at their game. Professional athletes are paid so much, because of the butts they put in the seats, their name recognition, their effect on apparell sales, their effect on TV ratings, the team in essence pays to own all that the player is, as far as when the player is representing the team. The player then can go out and get other endorsements and ads to make additional money, and wear whatever brands are willing to pay for the player to wear their clothes and supply the player with clothes.For poker players it is a very similar situation, but the player simply isn't getting paid. The players are gathering name recognition in idolistic forms, they are now bringing the spectators, people don't want to see just anyone play just for the sake of watching people play anymore, they want to see the greatest players in the world, whose names the public now recognizes. When the game was first becoming popular it was the game selling itself, that is no longer true.The players should be getting their cut from whatever clothing manufacurers they are represnting, companies should be allowed to form teams of players whom they sponsor. The players are in the position and have the right to demand money, as money is being made off their name and from their presence. :twisted:

I agree with what you are saying. I think the comparisons work better when you compare poker to golf or tennis. I'm not sure the team sport analogy is a good fit.

[LeeDanger]

I agree with you to a certain extent. The thing that most bothers me most is the fact that at big tournaments there seems to be two sets of rules, one for the recognized pros and rules for the rest of us. Some of the behaviour that I have seen from some of the top pros has made me sick. If I or some other amateur poker player were to do the same thing I know for a fact I would be banned from ever playing again in that tournament. I have a lot of gratitude for what poker has given me but people have to realize that poker owes a lot to the average player because without them poker would not be the explosion it currently is and players would not be able to make such a comfortable living without us so called "fish".

[hotdog da 2rd]

LAPoker said:

Yesterday in the super sattelite for the LA Poker Classic Lou Diamond Phillips decides to show up and shoot his movie during the tournement.  So they use all of us as extras, interupt the game, and don't even bring so much as a pizza much less add something to the pot (besides lou's buy in).  I think this just goes along with the WPT making millions off the TV show and still taking $25,000 out of the pot to pay for the championship buyin.  I just wonder how long the players will continue to get used like this?  Now for players like Daniel they do get something back from all of this like the big dollar televised free roles, endorcements, etc.  but the rest of the field is really getting screwed.

i bet u smiled alot when the camara was on. lol

[LeeDanger]

hotdog da 2rd said:

LAPoker said:

Yesterday in the super sattelite for the LA Poker Classic Lou Diamond Phillips decides to show up and shoot his movie during the tournement.  So they use all of us as extras, interupt the game, and don't even bring so much as a pizza much less add something to the pot (besides lou's buy in).  I think this just goes along with the WPT making millions off the TV show and still taking $25,000 out of the pot to pay for the championship buyin.  I just wonder how long the players will continue to get used like this?  Now for players like Daniel they do get something back from all of this like the big dollar televised free roles, endorcements, etc.  but the rest of the field is really getting screwed.

i bet u smiled alot when the camara was on. lol

:bubblelol:

[joeythep]

Here's my two cents:I have a theory on why sports like Poker and Nascar are gaining in popularity, and I'm sure I'm correct. It's because your typical sports fan (men, duh) is SICK to death of the economic issues that pervade Big Time Sports. I think people are turning to Poker and Nascar for their competitive entertainment simply BECAUSE there are no guaranteed contracts, no players union, no collective bargaining agreements. Daniel Negreanu has a butt ton of money, sure. But The difference between him and Joe Baseball Player, is that Daniel isn't gonna win Card Player of the Year, sign a ten year contract guaranteeing him $15 million dollars a year, then sit back and mail it in until his walk year. If daniel wants to get paid, he has to play. Jason Giambi, to name one guy,was one of the best players in baseball in 2001, and recieved a contract worth $120 million dollars. The first year of his contract he stayed true to form, but the next season was subpar, and the third season was downright awful. Now he's admitted (to a grand jury, in what was supposed to be a secret session) to using performance enhancing drugs .We can assume that unless he continues to use steroids, he'll never return to his old form. Nonetheless, thanks to the MLBPA, and their CBA, the New York Yankees are obligated to pay him the remaining $82 million dollars on his contract. EVEN IF HE NEVER PLAYS ANOTHER GAME. How many of us can relate to that type of economic security? My last point is this: People may want to see stars, but they don't want to see the whole sport getting larger than life. Let's not forget that the biggest factor of all in Poker's current popularity, is that it's crown jewel event, the WSOP Main Event, has been won two straight years by a "nobody". By a guy who won his seat playing online, probably in his pajamas.I watched Daniel play with some of us regular joe's online today. I, and several others chatted with Daniel, and recieved good responses to our questions. What do you think the chances are that I'll ever get the same opportunity to discuss the West Coast Offense with Brett Favre? Ask Barry Bonds what his favorite stadium to play in is? Do you think Kobe Bryant gives a rat's ass what your favorite Basketball book is?PLEASE! I BEG YOU!!! DON'T GO THAT ROUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[LeeDanger]

Wow, I really love that reply, you are right as far as I'm concerned. I am a huge hockey fan and am truly disgusted at what has become of the league. You even incorporated economics into the discussion, fantastic! Maybe we should give the NHL and NHLPA a tutorial in economics.

[bigcoled]

(bigcoled's comments are in parenthesis)Here's my two cents: I have a theory on why sports like Poker and Nascar are gaining in popularity, and I'm sure I'm correct.(I'm sure you are???) It's because your typical sports fan (men, duh)<----(That wasn't mine, though it is slightly offensive) is SICK to death of the economic issues that pervade Big Time Sports. (I find it interesting entertaining, and I believe when there is that much revenue hangin in the balance come from all directions, there will be alot of economic issues, and they need to be handled to everyone's liking, so they players will be happy and play, and the teams can whore out their names and numbers and all the other junk that comes with being a pro, and I'm sure I'm correct.)I think people are turning to Poker and Nascar for their competitive entertainment simply BECAUSE there are no guaranteed contracts, no players union, no collective bargaining agreements. ( Really? That's interesting, I wish somebody would've told me I only liked poker because their are no guaranteed contracts, player unions, nor collective bargaining agreements, because I would've stopped studying the players and how the play in certain situations from different positions, of the reputations they've built a long time ago, and I'm sure I'm correct.)Daniel Negreanu has a butt ton of money, sure. But The difference between him and Joe Baseball Player, is that Daniel isn't gonna win Card Player of the Year, sign a ten year contract guaranteeing him $15 million dollars a year, then sit back and mail it in until his walk year. If daniel wants to get paid, he has to play. (OK, though I've never heard of a guy named Joe Baseball Player, I know partially what you're trying to say. Yes, Daniel Negreanu could lay low, live an easy life and retire right now to live out the rest of his days peacefully on the Romanian country side, but you know why he won't, you know why no matter how much money he makes and how much financial security he has he won't stop playing? Its because he's a competitor, yes every pro hopeful player and pro player is out to make money, but beyond the money is the passion for competition. If professional athletes could compete in sports until they day they died, they would, there are very few athletes that would be willing to sit on the bench and get paid millions, if, big if here people, if the had the opportunity to be one of the best and display their skills with playing time and the thrill of competition for less money. And those players that did take the money and run, and quit giving their all, those people who seem to show their face the most in the media, spend the rest of their lives trying to find themselves, and where they gave up on themselves and lived a life of greed and sin. Because they'll always think back to what they could have been if they had played harder or the numbers they could have put up if they had played their hardest. Either that or they're old, they love to play, but their body can't take it anymore, or their thrills in life come from watching their family grow. For poker players of course there is a big difference in competition because its gambling, calculated risks, but gambling none the less, and we humans are very suseptable to becoming addicted and when you spend your whole life making a living at gambling, there is no going back, the need for a little risk no matter the value of the money, the need to be the best, these will keep people from just retiring, where else do gamblers belong besides in a casino? Even with no risk for him because of sponsors, he would still play the best poker he could, because it is what he does, it is so engrained as part of his life it is what he does naturally. Just as Barry Bonds can now naturally hit 50-70 homeruns every year, and he doesn't even look like he has to try anymore, steroids or not. The question I pose to is, doesn't Daniel Negreanu deserve that check for 15 million from a sponsor? Doesn't that athlete deserve it? I believe they both do, for reasons explained in my original message, and I believe I'm correct.)Jason Giambi, to name one guy,was one of the best players in baseball in 2001, and recieved a contract worth $120 million dollars. The first year of his contract he stayed true to form, but the next season was subpar, and the third season was downright awful. Now he's admitted (to a grand jury, in what was supposed to be a secret session)<---(I didn't type that) to using performance enhancing drugs .We can assume that unless he continues to use steroids, he'll never return to his old form. Nonetheless, thanks to the MLBPA, and their CBA, the New York Yankees are obligated to pay him the remaining $82 million dollars on his contract. EVEN IF HE NEVER PLAYS ANOTHER GAME. How many of us can relate to that type of economic security? (First off, that is Giambi's money, the Yankee's commited that money to Giambi contractually no matter what, you don't think the Yankee's didn't know anyways? Let's get serious here. Don't poker players deserve that security once they've reached that plateau in their career? Now that they have the ability to bring in big advertising bucks, they deserve it! I believe I'm correct.)My last point is this: People may want to see stars, but they don't want to see the whole sport getting larger than life. Let's not forget that the biggest factor of all in Poker's current popularity, is that it's crown jewel event, the WSOP Main Event, has been won two straight years by a "nobody". By a guy who won his seat playing online, probably in his pajamas. ( this was obviously not your last point, as is blantently obviouse by the paragraph following this one, but that's not the point here. Every televised poker event played on the mainstream television channels, with big time poker players will pull an audience, if the event is well advertised. The Joe Schmo effect the internet has had on poker is tremendous, its great to see the underdogs playing with the big boys of poker butting heads and boring around. That's exciting, and if they win great, but I do believe that we need a pro to win the next WSOP Main Event, but that's a different story. These WPT events would do well on ESPN, and those events have consistent professional players at the final tables.And, I believe I'm correct. )I watched Daniel play with some of us regular joe's online today. I, and several others chatted with Daniel, and recieved good responses to our questions. What do you think the chances are that I'll ever get the same opportunity to discuss the West Coast Offense with Brett Favre? Ask Barry Bonds what his favorite stadium to play in is? Do you think Kobe Bryant gives a rat's ass what your favorite Basketball book is? (Do you think Daniel Negreanu gives a rat's ass about what you have to say, he knows all he needs to know to be the best, you aren't going to teach him anything, and he's not gonna tell you anything he wouldn't tell any other average Joe, and the only reason he's playing against you average Joe's and talking to you is because its good publicity for his sites, he gets paid, and wants to take your money. Do you think a professional anything has free time, oh no my friends, for professionals, whether they be in athletics, business, or gambling everybody's out for the almighty dollar, if there is no upside for them they won't do it, and I believe I'm correct.)PLEASE! I BEG YOU!!! DON'T GO THAT ROUTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!( oh, it's already been brought'n!)

[UglyJimStudly]

LAPoker said:

Yesterday in the super sattelite for the LA Poker Classic Lou Diamond Phillips decides to show up and shoot his movie during the tournement.  So they use all of us as extras, interupt the game, and don't even bring so much as a pizza much less add something to the pot (besides lou's buy in).

I find this kind of surprising, for two reasons. First, location shoots are usually set up in advance - just showing up to shoot a movie unannounced usually doesn't go very well, so it seems more likely that the tournament organizers knew it was going to happen and approved the shoot. Second, the various unions associated with movie making generally take a dim view of using non-union labour for any normally unionized work, and that includes extras. Unless you signed some kind of combination waiver/contract to enter the tournament, it seems odd that you'd be used as an unpaid extra without the crew and the paid actors saying anything.Someone else in the thread mentioned logos being blacked out on TV broadcasts; that's done because the broadcasters have their own sponsors who pay to put the show on the air, and don't want any competitors undermining their message without having paid for the privilege. If televised poker continues to grow and the market for individual sponsorship becomes important enough, what you'll probably see is the various events and tours starting to provide approved sponsorship lists, and logos and such from the approved sponsors will not be blacked out.

[ddudley]

UglyJimStudly said:

Someone else in the thread mentioned logos being blacked out on TV broadcasts; that's done because the broadcasters have their own sponsors who pay to put the show on the air, and don't want any competitors undermining their message without having paid for the privilege. If televised poker continues to grow and the market for individual sponsorship becomes important enough, what you'll probably see is the various events and tours starting to provide approved sponsorship lists, and logos and such from the approved sponsors will not be blacked out.

As long as it turns out like the PGA tour I'll be happy.

[LeeDanger]

The big problem that I have with casinos at the big tournaments is the various treatments that players receive whether it be an amateur or a pro. I've been at a few tournaments where I know for a fact that I would be kicked out if I had acted like some of the pros that I have seen and it really bothers me how tournament organizers and pit bosses can turn a blind eye to that sort of behaviour one minute and then condemn that same behaviour litterally 5 minutes later (I'm sorry if I already posted a similar message to this, but it really pisses me off!)