the calling

[reverbse 0]

ok, so am i smart or am i retarded? or retarded enough to think i´m smart?3/6 6-max/5-handedHero sb J 9 3 foldsHero completesBB checksflop 8 8 A Hero betsBB callsturn A Hero betsBB raisesHero callsi had seen him three-bet the krablar preflop twice, so i thought it was highly unlikely that he had sth better than a jack when he only checked his option.he was extremely agressive, but no maniac. he was raising turns all over the place.i figured if i called the turn and the river, that i expected him to bet, i was still getting 3.5-1. the question here would be, since i don´t have any experience playing people that agressive, how often can i expect him to try to bluff this turn, assuming that i think he payed enough attention to know that i´m not exactly weak-tight?

[econ_tim 0]

he could have an 8 to win or a J to split . . .are you willing to pay two BBs to find out?btw, i raise preflop

[Briguy 0]

Calling that turn raise is silly, IMO. The Krablar currently has you crushed to 6 outs, as does any other hand with a K or a Q. If you think he's full o' beans, then raise...he will likely fold any non-A, non-8. He might even fold the almighty Krablar which, I should remind you, is currently winning. Reserve this 3-bet line for the true morons, though. Normally, I fold when caught bluffing with next to no chance of outdrawing in a 5 BB pot.

[reverbse 0]

he could have an 8 to win or a J to split . . .are you willing to pay two BBs to find out?btw, i raise preflop

what i forgot to include...see edit

[screech 0]

I'm usually raising this preflop. Sometimes I will limp if villian always calls pf and plays poorly postflop. This magnifies his mistakes preflop due to the small pot size. It's also easier to bluff the flop like you did.Occassionally, I will fold this pf. This is assuming a 1/3 blind structure and a tough BB.

[oceansize 0]

Yeah dude, preflop raise or I fold and move on.I agree with earlier sentiment. If you think you have the best hand you should be raising not calling, and with that board and reasonable doubt, why than are you calling?

[MrNiceGuy 0]

If you're going to call down against a raise, what's the point of betting the turn? You're a dog to a random hand, and the only hands he would fold on the turn after calling the flop are hands that have at most two or three outs.I wouldn't limp here preflop unless BB is a bad player; I'd normaly raise in a 2/3 structure, and fold in a 1/3 structure.

[reverbse 0]

If you're going to call down against a raise, what's the point of betting the turn? You're a dog to a random hand, and the only hands he would fold on the turn after calling the flop are hands that have at most two or three outs.

the reason i bet was because i thought i had the best hand. i was fairly certain that he would have raised preflop with any Q or K. i realize now that three-betting is a lot better than calling. the raise threw me off a little. he was bluff-raising more than anyone i´d ever seen play, but i din´t know if he would still make this play on a board like this where he can´t really expect me to give him credit for a hand. hence my question about hyper-agressive players.fwiw, i check-called the river and he showed T 2 .

[MrNiceGuy 0]

If you're going to call down against a raise, what's the point of betting the turn? You're a dog to a random hand, and the only hands he would fold on the turn after calling the flop are hands that have at most two or three outs.

the reason i bet was because i thought i had the best hand. i was fairly certain that he would have raised preflop with any Q or K. i realize now that three-betting is a lot better than calling.

Sorry, I didn't read your initial post carefully enough. Given your read, I like the turn bet, as long as you think he's very likely to bluff-raise.Also, given your read, I like the calldown, rather than 3-betting the turn. When villain is behind, he's usually got at most 3 outs. So, with only 5BB in the pot, you make more money by letting him bluff the river than by folding him out on the turn. (If he's got a diamond draw, he's got 12 outs, but in that case you don't lose much by giving him a free card, assuming he'll bluff the river UI).3-betting is only better IMO if you're not confident in your read, and you can comfortably fold to a cap (or if you're very confident in your read, and you expect that he's likely to try to bluff-cap).

[reverbse 0]

If you're going to call down against a raise, what's the point of betting the turn? You're a dog to a random hand, and the only hands he would fold on the turn after calling the flop are hands that have at most two or three outs.

the reason i bet was because i thought i had the best hand. i was fairly certain that he would have raised preflop with any Q or K. i realize now that three-betting is a lot better than calling.

Sorry, I didn't read your initial post carefully enough. Given your read, I like the turn bet, as long as you think he's very likely to bluff-raise.Also, given your read, I like the calldown, rather than 3-betting the turn. When villain is behind, he's usually got at most 3 outs. So, with only 5BB in the pot, you make more money by letting him bluff the river than by folding him out on the turn. (If he's got a diamond draw, he's got 12 outs, but in that case you don't lose much by giving him a free card, assuming he'll bluff the river UI).3-betting is only better IMO if you're not confident in your read, and you can comfortably fold to a cap (or if you're very confident in your read, and you expect that he's likely to try to bluff-cap).

yeah, you´re right. i think i was tending to the three-bet because in an unclear situation like that it´s nice to see people fold. not exactly an EV-perspective.

[Briguy 0]

Calling down can't possibly be +EV. How often is villian going to have T-high (like here) or worse? 1 time in 20? Normal villians, and even most bad aggressive villians have enough brains not to raise the turn with a T-high flush draw on a double-paired board.That said, buddylists are extremely +EV.

[Rocketwadster 0]

Raise or fold pre-flop, leaning towards folding against such an agressive player. Its a nothing pot right now, so it doesn't seem worth the risk IMO to try to steal this pot. 8)

[reverbse 0]

Calling down can't possibly be +EV. How often is villian going to have T-high (like here) or worse? 1 time in 20? Normal villians, and even most bad aggressive villians have enough brains not to raise the turn with a T-high flush draw on a double-paired board.

did you pay attention to my read?though he had a solid preflop selection otherwise, he was three-betting with K3o in the blinds. conclusion: would raise with any K or Q.he was raising every second turn and got away with it a lot. conclusion: bluffing machine. so normally his range for a turn raise would have been any two. my concern with the hand also was that bluff-raising this turn is pretty dumb. however, if "any two" is correct pokerstove estimates our equity at 70%. even if we add most Qs to his range we still got 62%.and not meaning to rip on you, but there is no flush draw.

[Rocketwadster 0]

and not meaning to rip on you, but there is no flush draw.

I see one...is there a typo? :?

[Actuary 3]

reverbse I find hands like this more frustrating to post than anything.It is SO read specific that to expect all of us to get inside your head because you gave us a sysnopsis of his play thus far, is fantasy.

[Briguy 0]

The spade I saw before is now a club. Must get my eyes checked. That makes villian's turn raise make a little more sense, for a maniac, as he couldn't possibly hope to win by drawing out.Your calldown is read-based, not EV-based. It cannot be +EV to call down two big bets to win seven with J-high on a double-paired board. You'd have to win more than 28% of the time. I still think a 3-bet is a better play, going with your read, because he can't call/cap with K-high or worse.**Except that he really, really sucks.

[reverbse 0]

It is SO read specific that to expect all of us to get inside your head because you gave us a sysnopsis of his play thus far, is fantasy.

that´s not what i expected. it was my first time playing 3/6 6-max and like i said, i hadn´t played anyone that agressive before. the hands i saw him show down outside of the blinds were solid, he also layed hands down, but if he stayed in a hand he went wild, especially in the blinds. that´s why i didn´t label him as a donk.if you reread my initial post you will see that my question is geared much more towards a player type than the situation at hand. possible answers would have beena) you have to expect to encounter players like that and you´re most probably good here.B) even the most agressive ones wouldn´t try to bluff this turn, you´re most probably not good here.turns out it was a very special situation, what admittedly makes this thread pretty obsolete.