26 replies to this topic

[PoppinFresh]

I feel like a bit like a donkey for even writing this because I may be completely misguided, but here’s the story of my limit hold ‘em journey that may be of help to some of you. I played LHE only sparingly and at the lowest levels until this past May, when reading the strat forums here on FCP inspired me to really work on my game and try and become a winning player at higher levels. I read SSHE, hit the 1/2 tables, and beat them with relative ease before stepping up to 2/4, which I found didn’t offer much of a challenge either. I purchased pokertracker and began multi-tabling. Around mid-August I began seeing some decent MTT success and started focusing on those more. I still wanted to learn LHE, but my bankroll was growing quickly and I was getting bored playing for the money that 2/4 offered. From what I had heard about party’s 3/6 game I didn’t think it would be too difficult, so I skipped it and jumped straight to 5/10 with the plan of moving to 10/20 as soon as I had been winning over enough hands. Things started out well but quickly went sour, and it wasn’t long before I realized that I just wasn’t playing well enough to beat the game. I honestly couldn’t handle the idea of moving down to 3/6 full and spending hour after hour grinding it out for relatively little money, but I also didn’t want to continue to bleed money away at 5/10. I finally settled on trying my hand at 3/6 6-max. I found these tables to be more exciting, but once again I proved to be a losing player. I got frustrated with LHE, and after seeing how soft the play at 1/2 and 2/4 NL was, I decided to stick to NLHE MTT’s and cash games.My computer broke at the end of October and I went until mid-December without any poker. When I finally got back into it, I wanted to take another shot at LHE, but I knew that this time things had to be different. I consider myself to be fairly good at adapting to whatever game I am playing and developing my own strategy. My MTT success came before I read any books/strategy forums, and I was beating the NL games on party again without reading any books or discussing strategy. I found that when I played LHE, I got caught up in studying books and hands from these strat forums to learn the right play. I tweaked my game so that my pokertracker stats moved towards their ‘correct’ values. In particular, I had to work on my aggressiveness; if I played my normal game, my AF hovered around 1.4 and I really had to work on making more bets and raises to get it higher. I’m not sure why, maybe it was because I was trying to take in and apply too much too fast, but looking back on it I feel like these efforts were hurting my game as much as helping it.So, two weeks ago, I made my return to LHE, this time 5/10 6-max. The first thing I did was get rid of pokerace and pokertracker. I focused on making good old-fashioned reads on the players I was playing against and only tracking my bottom line. The second thing I did was to stop multi-tabling; I felt that by only playing one table I would be able to better analyze each hand I was in and get better reads on my opponents. Finally, I tried to stop making reflex/habit plays and forget about specific hands that I had studied. As much as possible I wanted to evaluate each individual situation based on everything I had learned to come up with the best play. The results so far have been great. I’m beating the game for just over 2BB/100 over 4100 hands, and yes I know it’s too small a sample size to really draw any conclusions, but I can tell that my play is improving every session and I know that I’m playing better than my opponents. I’m making reads that I never did before, figuring out how a flop checkraise from player A is different than a checkraise from player B, figuring out which opponents I should jam the pot against and which opponents I should play more passively against, maybe waiting until the river to throw a raise in. I know I still have a long way to go, and in particular I need to learn to be more aggressive, but I finally feel like I’m off to the right start.I’m not saying that pokertracker or multi-tabling or books/strat forums are bad things, I plan on adding them all back into my game in the future, but I think it’s good advice to make sure you aren’t taking too much in too fast. I really feel that with LHE I got caught up in making what I read was the right play even if I didn’t fully understand why and without understanding the nuances that made the hand I was playing different from the one I read about. I’ve found that by just playing hands and working it out a bit more by myself the game is much more enjoyable and much more profitable. I hope this made sense to some of you and may help some struggling LHE players on their own journey.

[Rokuban]

PoppinFresh said:

I’m not saying that pokertracker or multi-tabling or books/strat forums are bad things, I plan on adding them all back into my game in the future, but I think it’s good advice to make sure you aren’t taking too much in too fast. I really feel that with LHE I got caught up in making what I read was the right play even if I didn’t fully understand why and without understanding the nuances that made the hand I was playing different from the one I read about.  I’ve found that by just playing hands and working it out a bit more by myself the game is much more enjoyable and much more profitable.  I hope this made sense to some of you and may help some struggling LHE players on their own journey.

I think that's good advice too.

[mk]

Yes, playing like a Miller robot doesn't work so hot the higher you go.Good post. It's important to constantly evaluate your play and how you are thinking about hands.

[Mattnxtc]

i will say this...since ive moved to the poker room network, i havent been able to use pt or gt+ b/c it slows down my computer (yeah my computer sucks) so i have run pt after ive played a session and then looked for leaks...i found that to be the best b/c it forces u to pay attention while still allowing u to have a record of ur session to look for leaks

[Rocketwadster]

Mattnxtc said:

i will say this...since ive moved to the poker room network, i havent been able to use pt or gt+ b/c it slows down my computer (yeah my computer sucks) so i have run pt after ive played a session and then looked for leaks...i found that to be the best b/c it forces u to pay attention while still allowing u to have a record of ur session to look for leaks

I have a similar story, in that I have stoppe dusing gametime+/pokerace during the play of the tables, as I found that I was placing too much emphasis on some of the info that it had compiled (with PT), and not enough emphasis on my own personal thoughts/reads throughout each hand. I still track everything in PT (and in PT Omaha), to check out hands after the fact, to post hands here, etc.Good little topic - not sure it is in the right forum though. 8)

[Jeff]

mk said:

Yes, playing like a Miller robot doesn't work so hot the higher you go.Good post. It's important to constantly evaluate your play and how you are thinking about hands.

The other thing that Miller fails to mention, is that if you consistently raise preflop with the hands that he suggests, or reraise on the flop to protect your hand and don't hit, people will begin to see through your game. You need to mix it up, change gears.

[Smasharoo]

Quote

it’s too small a sample size

One of the biggest mistakes you can make is to change your game and evaluate the results over the short term.Disasterous.good luck.

[Mattnxtc]

Jeff said:

mk said:

Yes, playing like a Miller robot doesn't work so hot the higher you go.Good post. It's important to constantly evaluate your play and how you are thinking about hands.

The other thing that Miller fails to mention, is that if you consistently raise preflop with the hands that he suggests, or reraise on the flop to protect your hand and don't hit, people will begin to see through your game. You need to mix it up, change gears.

u really overestimate the poor play that you see at 2/4 and 3/6 type levels... the solid players may notice but the donks dont

[PoppinFresh]

Smasharoo said:

Quote

it’s too small a sample size

One of the biggest mistakes you can make is to change your game and evaluate the results over the short term.Disasterous.good luck.

Is it not possible to tell that you're beating the game based on your opponents' play though? ps - As I write this I'm on a +36BB rush 150 hands into the session. Me run goot :-) pps- Sorry if this is the wrong forum, wasn't sure if it goes here or general strat.

[Smasharoo]

The other thing that Miller fails to mention, is that if you consistently raise preflop with the hands that he suggests, or reraise on the flop to protect your hand and don't hit, people will begin to see through your game. Hie, and do what?You're an idiot.good luck.

[Jeff]

Smasharoo said:

The other thing that Miller fails to mention, is that if you consistently raise preflop with the hands that he suggests, or reraise on the flop to protect your hand and don't hit, people will begin to see through your game. Hie, and do what?You're an idiot.good luck.

get ready to lock this one to since I am going to tell Smach to F uck off. Hie? is that a word? I'm the idiot?This site sucks...

[Smasharoo]

get ready to lock this one to since I am going to tell Smach to F uck off. For pointing out that you're an idiot?Surely not the first time this has happened.Maybe have some idea what you're talking about before making mindless psts that say nothing.Just a thought.good luck.

[Whatever]

I know you play a gazillion hands Smash but what is a good sample size? I'm pretty sure you've posted that you've had 10k downswings that shook even your confidence.

[Smasharoo]

I know you play a gazillion hands Smash but what is a good sample size?At six max? 200k?The problem is this. Thinking you're learning holdem by hand to hand feedback is the best way to have no idea what you're doing and go broke.Short term results are utterly meaningless and in six max terms this is *exceptionally* short term.good luck.

[Jeff]

Smasharoo said:

get ready to lock this one to since I am going to tell Smach to F uck off. For pointing out that you're an idiot?Surely not the first time this has happened.Maybe have some idea what you're talking about before making mindless psts that say nothing.Just a thought.good luck.

A) you're probably like 20, so there really is no reason for me to get worked up; B) you are a moron.You think I am way off base for suggesting that it may be a good idea to mix your game up? This is mindless and says nothing? What planet are you on?Talk about mindless nothing. You have nothing to offer at all. You have no opinions of your own. Keep trolling through the whole forum and add mindless tidbits that serve no purpose. I could get to 8000 posts quicly too.

[Briguy]

8000 posts of arguing with Smash and Actuary is probably -EV.

[Whatever]

Quote

At six max? 200k?

:shock: Whoa. What about full ring? 100kish?

[mk]

Smasharoo said:

Quote

it’s too small a sample size

One of the biggest mistakes you can make is to change your game and evaluate the results over the short term.Disasterous.good luck.

I agree. I didn't say it was good to evaluate short term results. I meant that it's good to evaluate individual hands instead of blindly applying some form of textbook advice to a situation that is likely very different from the example in said textbook.

[Smasharoo]

A) you're probably like 20, so there really is no reason for me to get worked up;I'm 33 actually and have probably made more money playing 6-max holdem than you will ever posses in your entire life.B) you are a moron.I'm a genius. Also, the greatest. Man, I'm the greatest.You think I am way off base for suggesting that it may be a good idea to mix your game up? This is mindless and says nothing? What planet are you on?I think you have absolutely no idea what you are talking aobut. None. I thikn you are repeating blindly you heard or read somewhere else, for no particular reason. Because that's what donkeys do, I guess. Who can understand why?Talk about mindless nothing. You have nothing to offer at all. You have no opinions of your own. Keep trolling through the whole forum and add mindless tidbits that serve no purpose. I could get to 8000 posts quicly too.Oppinions vary. I've gotten about 100 PMs from people specifically thanking me for making the money, but I duppose it's tru that I do have nothing to offer people with no intrest in learning the game and too much unwarranted ego. Now, don't get me wrong. I have a big ego, but it's warranted.I mean, after all, I'm the greatest.good luck.